Facing the Disruption with Honesty and Healthy Skepticism

We tried to distill some recent news and articles to see what's useful and what's not: 

Some tips for podcasts from Jane Friedman’s post about a publicists’ panel at the U.S. Book Show. A widely shared article in PW about an Authors Guild study on "average author incomes." And another hand-wringing article in The Atlantic about "The End of Reading."  

As usual, takeaways are summarized in our Substack, Publishing Disrupted: https://publishingdisrupted.substack.com/p/facing-the-disruption-with-honesty

And links to articles mentioned below: 

Jane Friedman, “Podcast Publicity for Authors and Publishers: What’s Working”: https://janefriedman.com/whats-working-in-podcast-publicity-for-authors-and-publishers/

Publishers Weekly, “Authors Guild Looks at Why Author Incomes Are in Decline”: https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/100605-authors-guild-survey-looks-at-why-author-incomes-are-in-decline.html

The Atlantic, “The End of Reading Is Here”: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/2026/08/reading-crisis-postliterate-age/687618/ 

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

Mick 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back, Publishing Disrupted Podcast. I am editor Mick Silva.

David 0:06

And I am literary agent and indie book publisher David Morris.

Mick 0:11

And we are exploring the ways in which book publishing is changing and how writers can best meet that challenge.

David 0:17

We talk about how publishing is disrupted, and it's about how we all get disrupted personally one way or another, wherever life might be, and we certainly have as professionals the disrupt disruption going on as well as how we lean in to that disruption in the book publishing business.

Mick 0:37

Exactly. Things that have happened to us, uh we're being disruptors and disruptive as well. I've always been disruptive. I mean, in class I was too shy to be the disruptor, but I was generally, you know, covertly being disruptive.

David 0:52

Yeah, maybe shyness is a way of being disruptive.

Mick 0:54

Oh, there you go. That's right. In a in a world of talkers. Yeah. Here we are on podcasts, two quiet kids. Um this is our chance to not be quiet. Well, we're talking about books. So in that way, it just feels like, well, why wouldn't I? I love doing that.

David 1:10

Yeah, this is definitely listeners. This is just a totally self-indulgent podcast. If you haven't figured that out by now, it took two introverts finally getting their say to just the two of us. And maybe a few of you intrepid listeners.

Mick 1:25

Thank you. And also there's another layer to that too, because we're both pastors' kids. Uh-huh. And we were sitting in church for a long time, having to be good and quiet, right?

David 1:34

Oh, that phrase sitting in church for a long time, I resonate with that right there.

Mick 1:39

So it feels like we're kind of getting our do a little bit, and we can talk about our opinions and how not religious we are now.

David 1:46

Um instead of just being the scenery, which is what we were trained to be. Yeah, there's a lot to discuss. See, our interversion is more socially determined than you might realize.

Mick 1:55

It totally is. Yeah. When I get around, especially one-on-one like this, when I get around people who are into the things I'm into, oh man, you can't shut me up. Yeah. I just get all excited and yeah.

David 2:04

Well, like what, for example, what are you into that you've not revealed?

Mick 2:07

Obviously, uh publishing, um, anti-religion. I mean, this is hard to say because there's a lot of people who are very devout and religious about things, but I'm just like, religion, and I make a distinction between spirituality and religion. Everyone's spiritual, whether they like it or not. In fact, everyone's religious too, in some ways, right? That's correct.

David 2:28

I agree. As a religious studies scholar, I agree wholeheartedly.

Mick 2:31

But to be religious about religion, I'm just not. I don't I don't value.

David 2:36

I thought you were going to talk about like weird things, like you revealed to me you play video games. Oh, that's true.

Mick 2:41

Yeah. I suppose that's I suppose that's weird. Uh most that can get you talking. Vintage vintage video games. I love them. Um vintage in the sense of like 8-bit, 16-bit. We like Super Nintendo. I play a lot of Metroid, um, adventure games, exploration, mazes, uh games with maps. Love it. Oh man. Those are fun. Wow. My daughters have become um pretty rabid about these games as well. And so, like, we've played all of the different iterations. And and the newer ones aren't as fun as the old ones to me. Yeah. Just because there's this this sense of.

David 3:20

See, see, uh all of a sudden we are talking about something like you can't stop. And you're super articulate. And to me, the thing, the key thing was there, we meaning we and my me and my daughters are you're playing things together. Totally. Yeah.

Mick 3:34

I don't like playing by myself.

David 3:35

Yeah.

Mick 3:35

It's it's more of like a even though it's a one person, usually a you know, one person, even if it's side scroller, yeah. You know the difference there where it's like immersive or it's a side scroller. Uh it's more of a like 2D.

David 3:49

That must be like a whole movement in parenting right now, um where parents are playing video games with their kids.

Mick 3:54

I've heard about it from other people, mostly dads.

David 3:57

Can't imagine everybody's doing it. Oh, okay. Some women as well. I mean, there's something to that. Wow.

Mick 4:02

Yeah. Huh. I don't know. I mean, we borrowed some games from you recently. Opportunity to witness to your children. With the video games, yes. Play Bible smash up. Yeah. No, uh, we we borrowed some Wii games from you recently. We had like uh borrowed, we gave them to you.

David 4:20

Come on.

Mick 4:21

No. We can't we can't take your games. Those are those are memories of your daughters as well. Oh, that's true. You know, they probably want them back. Okay. But yeah, we we will play uh Wii golf. We've been doing a lot of that recently. Nice because you know, it's fun. Um anyway, yeah. This is not about publishing. No, back to our let's get back to the point. Sorry, we may cut this out. Um, but we discussed the challenges and the opportunities we see from authors. This mainly is it's everywhere. I suppose that there's a little bit of a segue here because I I was very focused on just being an author when I was younger. I wanted to write books. Yeah, because I got inspired by Wrinkle in Time and Catcher in the Rye and all these books that were like really cool characters. Yeah, and then I wanted to write books. So then I I went into like that mode. I I'm gonna be a creative writer. So I I studied creative writing in college, and you know, it came out and I'm like, hey, are you where are all the creative writing jobs? They don't exist. Like I wasn't really prepared for this, but like I needed another interest. I I didn't have a lot of hobbies other than you know, writing short stories. Um, so I just I think that one of the things I've been telling my daughters as they prepare for life is have other interests and dig down into them. Like this is this is really important. Remember, we had Ivy on uh Ivy Zeller, the agent with uh hyponymus, and I I think she made a great point because on her blog she's sort of doing it as a daily devotional, I suppose. But um, like her deep dives she's just putting out there for people to kind of learn from, whether it's about gardening or uh I forget some of the topics she was doing, but yeah, um whatever topic was interesting her, she was just writing about it and and exploring that what she called hyperfixation that she has. Okay, yeah, and maybe it's a neurodivergence. I don't remember talking about that specifically, but my kids definitely have that, and where they just get really excited and inspired by something for a while, and so they deep dive into it until it moves on and and they get into something else. And um, the the world is big and vast, and there's just a lot of fun things to explore.

David 6:32

That's a spiritual hyperfixation is a spiritual practice. I think that's what Ivy is trying to do. Totally, that's I think she says it outright.

Mick 6:39

Yes, exactly. Thank you. That's that's what I'm I'm trying to figure out now later in life, is all the things that were I was sheltered um as a as a PK. So now I'm kind of like finding it either in books or movies.

David 6:56

It's a big wide world out there of things to get hyperfixated on.

Mick 7:00

Things that are fun, like there's there's just different discussions that can be had. I love talking to you because it's about like the psychology of things and even like sociology. Like I'm I'm a amateur or couch uh sociologist, basically. Like I I think we all are in some ways. Like, why are people behaving the way they are? Right. What happens when we get into groups? Right. You know, this sort of like I our intelligence goes down.

David 7:26

Yeah, it's hard not to actually it can go up too. That's the thing. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Mick 7:30

And and I guess that's my my point being that I uh I'd like to be broader, uh more interested in more types of things uh as I get older. And I don't know, I think there's a there's a value in getting specific. And I mean, obviously we have skills in publishing and editing and writing, but um that has to the content has to come from somewhere.

David 7:55

Right. And that's a full life, right? Right, right. You can't just be an editor, you can't just be an author. You're an author of something or an editor that connects as well. Your expertise has to come through, exactly.

Mick 8:06

So I think in this podcast, we're trying to be broad in in the sense of like what we talk about, who we talk with. Right. Uh I'd love to take some questions if we have enough listeners to do this. Like if people would put questions. Live questions. Oh. Well, like that we could respond to.

David 8:24

Comments on our Substack would be great.

Mick 8:26

Substack, yep.

David 8:27

Um, or even just contact us to our talking to, you know.

Mick 8:31

I've I've heard from several people who said, Oh, I listen to your podcast. I'm like, why?

David 8:36

We don't even listen to it.

Mick 8:37

No, no, no, honestly. Well, why would we?

David 8:40

We listen to it ourselves.

Mick 8:41

We just have a lot of stuff to talk about. I have a topic list here of things that I'd love to cover in our next um but today we're going to talk about. Today we had some some articles. I mean, we we read technically, and and then people have opinions and things that they're sharing. I had something that I'd like to do.

David 9:01

It's a lot of commentary that goes on about the publishing business. Exactly. A lot of commentary, but but from all from a whole continuum of stuff that's helpful and people in the business, people, people studying the business, people like para organizations around the business, and then obviously on social media or wherever you see a lot of comments from everyday writers, authors.

Mick 9:25

Yeah. Yeah. Or I I mean, I we all follow follow people on Substack.

David 9:29

I I do think it's quite often you don't get a lot of unfiltered comments from people high up inside the business. That's true. Because they're they're usually often they're careful, they're representing their brand. They don't want to say something their CEO or their bosses don't want to hear them say. Um, they don't want to reveal secrets. Right. Um, they don't want to reveal vulnerabilities.

Mick 9:58

Well, they don't even want to admit things like like the idea that consolidation in publishing is is kind of a bad thing.

David 10:05

Yeah.

Mick 10:06

That that is one of the reasons that publishing stuff.

David 10:09

Yeah, no one's no one says anything about that from inside the business.

Mick 10:12

Yeah. Yeah. Um that that this is a never-ending battle that it is going on. And and but once you identify that and you start seeing it, you can see why the indie publishing is growing.

David 10:23

Exactly. It might be imploding. The consolidation phase might be imploding a little bit.

Mick 10:27

Right, right. And then they have to eat up more imprints, basically, to to find distinction.

David 10:32

Might be imploding. Yeah. But but it's still a mass market, mass retail world in a way.

Mick 10:37

Right. At in at any rate, I feel like the uh experience that we've had, you know, with the years in publishing that we've had in Christian publishing, and then seeing how uh I guess it struggles to not only be literary, like like in the best sense of that phrase, like a literary culture. Is there one when it comes to Christian books? I just I struggle to say that that exists. I mean, maybe, but it's sort of an extension of denominational church affiliation. I I think a lot of publishers act as arms of their church. And so, you know, is it a literary culture? Not really. It's it's pretty careful. It's like how I was raised. It's very um circumscribed, right? There's only so much you can talk about. Right. And and there are certain topics that are verboten, and and you're never gonna hear from a publisher about those topics. It sounds like the publishing business itself. Well, exactly. They're both cults of of commerce. And they'll always argue, well, that's just not the audience we serve. That's the thing.

David 11:40

One says it's not commerce, the other says it is.

unknown 11:43

Right.

David 11:44

One says one pretends it's a good thing.

Mick 11:47

Yeah. Or if they are, they're doing it for Jesus. But it's like it's a it's just well, that's what they say they're doing, but it's really language, right? Yeah.

David 11:55

They're just living. It's often about something else.

Mick 11:57

So I I struggled there um to say that there was a a vibrant literary culture. Uh that that's that's not the point of what they're doing. They don't necessarily even care about the content in as much as it is just like safe.

David 12:12

So this article is about a certain literary culture that is uh manifested in in podcast culture, podcast discussions. Yeah. Right. This first article that we wanted to mention.

Mick 12:24

Right. Uh the the Jane Friedman panel.

David 12:28

The second article, which I hope we'll get to, is about uh how authors are making money. Yeah. So there we go. It took us that long to 12 minutes to introduce our topic for the day.

Mick 12:39

In i in in Jane's article, it was she was talking about a a uh panel that happened with pub publicists, uh primarily publicists, at the US book uh book show.

David 12:50

The US book show, which is uh I think it's a pu publishers weekly sponsored show uh yeah for professionals and maybe authors alike. I don't even know. Kind of like book extra. Yeah, sure.

Mick 13:00

It's not it's not exactly consumers, it's more there's tables and convention hall, and you're learning about authors and and books. Yeah. But uh the post that she had pulled together from this panel was about podcast publicity. Uh what's working, what's not working, how does it um how does it work for authors and and what are they seeing? And so these experts uh were sharing some of their tips and some of the takeaways, I mean, and I could list them, they were there are so so much things that I am trying to coach authors on. The main thing is to start early. When you're talking about a book, you're entering a conversation. One of the things that I know you tell your authors is it's not just a book, it's a whole campaign that we're trying to prepare people to understand.

David 13:49

So it was saying start early with the with pitching.

Mick 13:52

Start early with pitching, start early with your topics, uh finding the connections with these podcast hosts that you'd like to go on their podcast and share. Um start early. And she was even saying like six months. Um the the the panelist uh was saying six months already, uh like before release in advance of release. That's usually a little well go ahead. Um that might be a little early. I mean, especially for Indy.

David 14:18

Maybe start thinking about the podcast, start collecting them six months in advance, that's for sure. Start researching podcasts.

Mick 14:24

And and these are hopefully podcasts you're listening to, or ones that you've right uh enjoyed. And and so then you would understand the format and you kind of get what the host is about. And maybe you even have a personal connection to the host or someone who has been on their podcast, and and so you can make your pitch a little more personal when you do that, right? Then that's key, right?

David 14:47

Right, right. And I I think too, it's um it it tells you that podcasts are about community. Yeah, getting back to literary culture idea. Um it's not like it's not exactly about how many books you'll sell if you're on a certain podcast, it's about it's also about and maybe even more importantly, about um connecting with that host, right? Connecting with that co-host. Um because they're often not just podcast hosts, they're also people who are out there in other ways. They might be an outright social media influencer. Um they might know other authors who you can connect with because they're interviewing a lot of authors all the time. Um there's a lot of power there, I think. Yeah. If you're if you can establish a relationship through the podcasting guest process, um, you know, it's not just about you, it's about who who this host is, what their program is about, what they want to, what they want to talk about.

Mick 15:48

Exactly.

David 15:49

Um I think a lot of authors pick up on that pretty quickly when they get in the in the context of it. Yeah. Um, but but I think that's you know, I think that's something that you don't get from um like a media hit, like a print media article. Yeah, you know, you'll get some comments maybe, you'll connect with the editor of that of that magazine, maybe some but you hope you're getting your message out. But the podcast is a lot more intimate.

Mick 16:14

Um I mean that's podcast is the conversation, yeah. Yeah. And and I think I think that's where a lot of authors can come alive because they're finally getting some like in-person response to their content and get to talk about it. Like that's very exciting.

David 16:29

Yeah. So if you have a relationship, right, which you didn't you couldn't get before podcasts came over.

Mick 16:34

Exactly.

David 16:34

Yeah. Like they are today anyway.

Mick 16:36

No, it right. And it's it's not just an interview, usually it's it's gonna be uh you know, pretty personal too. So you look for the appeal. Um, one of the the takeaways was um pitch to the shows that fit your topic and tone. And you um to the idea of being specific about the appeal and and I would even say the felt need, like does it fit in terms of your audience and the felt need of that audience? Why is it that you're going to this show? And that's what you put in your pitch. Because then immediately the host or whoever's reviewing that pitch will uh be able to see that connection. Oh, they're looking for the same type of audience, but it's also the same pain point or felt need. Um or or a similar one at least related. Uh they're looking to uh but maybe it's self-help or they're looking to talk about like religious trauma or just in in other words, understand the format, listen to their previous interviews, see how they went, understand how the host operates, uh how much personal material to how much right just the book content do they talk about. No one wants a forced connection, no one wants a forced conversation. Right. And you you know it when you hear it. And so I think sometimes uh you know you it gets uncomfortable real fast. Right. So make sure you do your homework before you get on there.

David 17:58

I think too, like like this article, it said be prepared.

Mick 18:02

Um come prepared, come prepared conversation, yes.

David 18:05

Well, I but I think for conversation is the key thing. It's not so much like come with like a speech ready to give.

Mick 18:12

Right, yeah. I mean you might have points.

David 18:14

But because podcasts are much more informal. Yeah. So come ready to be a a real person to talk about the bigger issues, not just about your you know what happens in your book, exactly.

Mick 18:26

And and aiming for that genuine connection all the time. Um, because it's a it's about relationships and building relationships. Right. I like the point too that the bigger of the podcast isn't necessarily better.

David 18:37

Yeah, that was the lead point of the article, wasn't it?

Mick 18:39

Okay, yeah, that's right. Um, size doesn't necessarily mean sales. Like the smaller shows, and you can see this, smaller shows get more specific and create a deeper connection with their audience. They because they can. I mean, yeah, frankly, there's you know, if you have a thousand listeners, that's a much better uh chance to connect with those listeners than it is if you add ten thousand or more. Right. So you're not necessarily just looking for the biggest podcast as an author.

David 19:08

Yeah, I would say like in my experience, I like I don't have access to the big ones that you know that maybe people know about. And what's big? Like a hundred thousand? Yeah, I mean honestly, I go by, you know what I go by as a pu a book publisher doing pro doing promotional work, uh publicity work. I look, I my biggest indicator is I go to Apple Podcasts and I look and see what how many how many ratings do they have. That's good. Um if it's rarely am I pitching one that has over a thousand. Sure. Because of the the niche nature of the books that I'm doing. Right. Um if it has just two ratings, I probably, you know, I I will look out, you know, unless it really fits.

Mick 19:50

Yeah.

David 19:50

And maybe it's new, so it's a good idea to go ahead and do it anyway. Sure. And I usually am very, you know, liberal about like let's do with this. Let's do if someone's really interested, let's do it.

Mick 20:00

Yeah.

David 20:00

Uh, because you can all you can sometimes use that content too to talk about your book. Right. Just do it in a way that's value-driven and not just, oh, I was on a podcast. Yeah. Um, always come up with like content that says something. Um but yeah, I I I approach it like, you know, I look at the I look at the ratings as a as one indicator. I look at how frequently they're posting. A lot of times when you're doing podcast work, it's like, oh, they haven't put anything up for six months. Yeah. Okay. Right. But move them to my maybe I won't pitch them again list. Right. Um, and that happens a lot, honestly, and when you're in the in the niche markets. Sure. Um, but there, but there are podcasts who have really hung in there, and um it's just like anything else, too. It's like being a book author. It's like you gotta stick with it's not just like a like a two-year deal here. Sometimes you run out of content. It's more than that, yeah. Yeah, lose your space. Right. Right, right. And and you're not and you're not actually getting into a conversation. You're not connecting into a community. I think that's why a lot of I think that's partly why maybe some are not connecting. It's like they're not their community isn't growing or it's not it's not extending. I wouldn't say growing necessarily, because that's like a I'm not that's not performative, it's more like are you connecting? Yeah, yeah.

Mick 21:16

Is that yeah, perceived value, right? Yeah is what you want to be giving to their the listeners, engagement, yeah.

David 21:24

Yeah, but definitely bigger is not is not better in that world. And I, you know, I've had an author uh at Lake Drive Books recently who uh got a lot of podcast traction, a lot of podcast traction. In fact, one that was pretty big, and it is interesting that the sales just don't they're not reflecting automatic, like oh, you know, 50 books sold because of that podcast.

Mick 21:47

Yeah, yeah.

David 21:48

Um I think it does they they are listened to over an extended period of time. Okay. Um so that spreads out the effect that they might be having. That's part of it. Um I do think that. It it I don't know what's coming to mind. I think it helps mature an author's way of understanding who they are, what their book is about, too, by continuing to talk about it. And it gets and it connects them into a conversation. Um I think if you too, if you hit the right podcast and you you really speak to that podcast audience, regardless of it's small, you will move books, even from the small ones. Though I will see books move from a very small podcast. Um so it's you know, it's a mixed bag. Sure. But it's it's um there's a lot of intangibles to don't disregard them.

Mick 22:34

I I and one of those, I mean, just to kind of um not to curtail things, but like I want to move on to your article too. But the last point I wanted to to make from this was really interesting, and I think it comes from a publicity uh pro. But talking about coordinating the show's release, you don't have a lot of control over that as an author, obviously. They're gonna release when they do, but you can like ask the question like when will this release? Is it right around the time of your book release? I I would try to coordinate it because one of these um publicity experts was saying they they coordinated all shows to release within a short time frame of uh soon after that book released, and and it really did help that at least initial launch of of uh whatever the book was. I'm I'm understanding it was nonfiction, but um you know, then it can really show kind of uh like gets gets the word out. We always call it like seeding the market, right? Right. And and then the conversations start happening and and growing from there.

David 23:35

I think I think that's true for all publicity. It's sort of like an accumulation of social confirmation. There's like a yeah, if you can get it all critical mass. A critical mass, it's suddenly people are like, oh, I heard about this here and I heard about this here, I heard about this here. Yeah. I need to I need to check this out and have a lot of people.

Mick 23:50

This author said I needed to check this out.

David 23:52

I think that's a true thing in general. Um I think that it that that's not the only thing. Like at some point, all that all that some at some point that window is over. Right, right. And pretty quickly. If you didn't create that critical mass, it doesn't mean you failed. No, it doesn't. And it and honestly the critical mass, I don't know how much that really happens for most people.

Mick 24:15

That's something to talk about.

David 24:16

Like I was just reading another publicist Substack uh that I read said that you just don't see that happening these days. Legacy media does not work like that anymore because it just isn't there.

Mick 24:27

Well, you can't coordinate with legacy media, there's no way.

David 24:30

Right. But I do think I do think with regard to podcasts, yeah. I mean, uh first off, I think a lot of the hosts are already aware of this and they they want to schedule the release of the podcast near the date. I think that it is a benefit to them that it shows their own social confirmation and relevance. That's right.

Mick 24:48

Um and you can even pitch that to them. So there's that, yeah. Say this is my window. Right. And, you know, if it's not in June, you know, then we'll move on to someone else.

David 24:57

But but I mean a lot of podcasting too is it's work. And like even what we do, it's um, you know, yeah, when can you fit things in? How how far out are you already booked? Yep. Um you gotta let some things go. Yeah.

Mick 25:12

You're gonna follow up, but you gotta let it go for now.

David 25:14

So I think I think there's also a long tail that you can have by still pitching yourself to podcasts later on. If you're in a conversation, it's not strictly about um, it's not strictly about the book, it's about whether you're a person of influence as well. Like if you bring, if you're a a ho, a guest, and regardless of whether your book just came out, if you also have a following, yeah, and you go on that that podcast, that podcast sees, just to speak in business terms, value in you for for because you're now going to promote that episode to your audience. Exactly. Yeah. And and it's not just about it's not just about the book. In fact, that's actually kind of what it's kind of what the podcast wants in the first place. Yes, yes, is more of their own audience to grow, like like overlapping. So I think in the long term, there's a lot of value to continuing on uh to not just, oh well, I don't want to do that podcast because it's like my book has already been promoted, or it only has to be around the launch date. That would be the wrong mindset. It would besides also, you know, you can only do so many podcasts as an author. Right. If if there's a lot of them booking you, there's like it you will run out of time. Oh my gosh.

Mick 26:25

I know. They were saying 20, 20 shows coordinated to release with this one relate book reading. Yeah, well, that's a lot of shows. Yeah, that's a lot, even for like a higher level author, that's a lot of that's a lot. Yeah, so they had to be recording over months, right?

David 26:39

Yeah, or just getting them prep prepped way in advance.

Mick 26:42

Ready to ready to launch.

David 26:44

Yeah, but I can guarantee you if they really had 20 coming out around the launch window for the book, let's call the launch window a period of like four weeks. Yeah, there was probably a point in there where the author was like doing a podcast every time they turned around. Exactly. Yeah, and that could be exhausting. Yeah.

Mick 26:59

Oh my gosh.

David 27:00

Yeah.

Mick 27:00

Yeah, no, that's not usually what's gonna happen. That's typically not the people.

David 27:05

Especially if you're like in a niche interest area. That's the thing I was gonna talk about. It's more reliable than or just ask you about.

Mick 27:11

Like, yeah, the the mass, critical mass is probably necessary on the books that have a lot of movement, a lot of interest in that content, in that topic. Yeah, we're looking more at niche uh books, like religious trauma, right? Um like purity culture. Um, I would think like Sarah Mosliner. Well, let's have her on. She she could probably talk about this too. Like when you're talking to an audience that is like pretty limited, you know all the podcasts that that exist. You know kind of all of the outlets that you know.

David 27:47

And you and they and you could get on all those podcasts and they could all release all at once, and it won't have any effect on your purity culture book in terms of sales. It still won't really matter much. And this is not a dig against anybody or anything, it's just that but it's just the scale is different. Yeah. So you have to approach it differently.

Mick 28:02

Well, and academic books also, right? If they're for the educational model, like that's that's gonna be an another sort of limiting factor on your audience growth. Right. Uh and publishers know that and and authors need to know that as well. You kind of like adjust your expectations before your book releases.

David 28:20

Yeah.

Mick 28:21

So anyway, that's all we need to talk about there. I can put the link in the the notes here so you guys can check it out.

David 28:26

I w I will say podcasts are pretty important. When I put together a campaign these days, I'm looking at launch team, I'm looking at podcasts, I'm looking at author um posting value, value-driven content.

Mick 28:39

Yeah. Yeah. I I don't trust ads in magazine. I mean, who's even looking at those?

David 28:43

Um or TV, I don't think you're gonna get on a show like or even print or online written media. You know, like people want to pitch to exactly pitch my book to the New York Times, you know. Well, first off, they're looking for feature articles and and yeah, there's the book review, but right.

Mick 29:04

And and maybe there's a smaller outlet you could you could um find. Uh I don't know, there's there's all kinds of interesting things you can do. So I mean in social media isn't the be all end all either. I don't know that people buy books necessarily off of Facebook ads, but I mean maybe you have some anecdotal more off of the author's posting.

David 29:25

Okay, I think. Yeah, I mean, I definitely if if an author has a has a good size following, it takes more than one post to get through to your reader. And right. And that is sometimes enough. Yes. Is is if if there's enough posts from you over an extended period of time, if you're coming at them with value-driven content, even if you're not talking about the book directly and it's in your profile.

Mick 29:44

Sometimes that's better, right?

David 29:46

That can still drive sales over time. And that's one of the things I say is like what happens when the media campaign's over?

Mick 29:52

Right.

David 29:53

What's gonna be the thing that drives awareness for your book? And if you feel like the media campaign was the one thing that's gonna do it, like it needed to create a critical mass, and then suddenly the book takes off on its own as word of mouth, that's great, that does happen. But if but but that's it will end at some point for most authors. And so then what? Then what? Then what? How are you going to find out how people are gonna find out about your book?

Mick 30:17

Right, right. And it isn't just about selling the book. I mean, obviously, it's more about at least for the authors I'm working with, I'm assuming yours too, they want to be part of a conversation. Um I don't say start a conversation because I don't think that's necessarily ever the case. It's more adding to the conversation or adding your take on a conversation that already exists. Yeah, so you have to come prepared and do your research and know who's talking about this and what they're saying.

David 30:43

Have something to say.

Mick 30:44

Have something to say that's your your own and that you're um um I guess researched and and maybe become an expert in that particular take.

David 30:55

But um I have my own little project coming out, and I'm I'm just starting to work on a podcast pitch.

Mick 31:01

Oh, yeah.

David 31:02

And the thing that's exciting me the most about it is not so much talking about all the weed in getting into the weeds of the book itself, but um the conversation that can be had around it. That's what that's actually is what is what is exciting me more than anything. Yeah. Yeah, I hope I get it. Yeah, I hope I can learn your opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. That's if you have a podcast out there, Dave Morris has a book coming up. We'll talk about it more later on.

Mick 31:28

Yeah, I wouldn't know it another episode.

David 31:29

So this author article, this other article, not author article, the word author is in the title. Oh, it was a excuse me, it was a um publisher's weekly article. Right. Not the only place where the story was published, but uh, the title is Authors Guild looks at why author incomes are in decline. And it goes on to say that 25% of print books and ebooks read in the past month were bought and were bought new or through a paid subscription. So only 25% of print books and ebooks read in the past month were bought new. Um the study conducted by the Codex Group notes that books are available in more formats and channels than ever before. And average authors earnings, here comes the number, now pegged at about $10,000 annually. Good grief. Have declined about 42% since 2009, the year Kindles first entered the market. Now let's unpack that. Okay.

Mick 32:30

I don't yeah, I don't know about that.

David 32:32

Yeah. I mean, the the main the main thing is okay, well, one thing that one way to look at this, strictly look at the math. Like what like if 10% is 42% down since 2015 years ago, 17 years ago, 2009. 2009. Um that means they were making I mean maybe it means you were making what uh like like 15, 1500 before? It means you're only making fifteen thousand before annually. So so the and so the income is down to ten thousand annually from fifteen thousand annually. So is this really news? Is this really a story? No, that's a question right there. Yeah, it would make sense that yeah. Okay, so I mean it's directional information, but is that really um is that really breaking news? No. No. Uh it like okay, we all kind of know authors aren't making a lot of money in general. Yeah, on average. Now, of course, we don't know where this 10,000 annual annually comes from. It really everything, like we've said many times, everything in the book publishing conversation depends on context.

Mick 33:32

And how your there's a lot of different contexts, yeah.

David 33:36

Um but that so that's something to I mean, I think that's something to talk about is is there really an issue here? Because it will matter as we go down further into the article as they talk about why it's down. Um I think also the fact that it calls out um the the fact that there are more far formats and channels than ever before. Like, is that a reason why author income might be down just simply because there's more formats and more more markets than channels than ever before?

Mick 34:10

It's the opposite.

David 34:11

Yeah, you would think it's the opposite. Yeah, yeah.

Mick 34:13

It's more available.

David 34:14

Right, right. So, in a way, that is that really fair to peg that as part of the issue. Right. And and that's what gets me about the article in a way, because it's sort of like, well, okay, so let's talk about what what why that might be, why is it unexpected? Um it also talks about 2009 marking the point where it was a downturn, more or less. That's what implied, I believe, by the spray off being the year that Kindles first entered the market, which is true, Kindles first entered the market around 2009. Yeah. But like it's a little misleading right there. Because Kent because because ebooks, espe at least in context, right? But ebooks are a much smaller percentage than people realize. I still get comments from people saying, you know, like they're shocked when I tell them of the books I sell, only 10% are ebooks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nonfiction, spirituality, religion, memoir, self-help. Um it's higher for fiction, obviously. I mean, that's surprising. But it's not that much higher. People still prefer print print books by by a large margin. Large margin. Audiobooks we've mentioned before have been have actually surpassed in some instances ebooks. Depending on the topic. Yeah. Yep. And that I think that's the biggest surprise as of as of late.

Mick 35:35

Well, I mean, that's true for my usage as well. I mean, just personally. I'm I'm listening to far more books than I'm actually reading, and I never read an ebook. Like I just don't do it. Right, right. I'm always on the computer. Me neither. Yeah. So so if it's on it and and also I know ebooks are cheaper. I I want a real book. If I'm gonna read a book, I want to read a book. I think most people are that way. Right. At least most people my age. Maybe that's not as true for younger kids or whatever, depending on the the read. But I I would argue like most of the time. All the way up to like anything with pictures, anything with notes, anything that I'm gonna have to like flip around, I want a real book.

David 36:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 36:17

Graphs.

David 36:18

Yeah, and that's and that's true for most people most of the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 36:23

There are groups where that it's not true for them, but so so why do you think that they're trying to make this point about ebooks being one of the reasons that authors' incomes or earnings are down? Like it just doesn't seem to follow.

David 36:38

Yeah, I think I think it gets back to the bigger point of there's more formats and more channels. Um so they go on in the article to say that the way readers obtained their most recent book was at the library, with 20 29% choosing that option. Okay. 10% were bought used, 16% were borrowed for free from another source, which I don't that's not explained here what that is, and then 19% were from personal collections. I'm not sure what that means, if it means borrowed from someone else's collection.

Mick 37:10

Or that they already owned it and just reread it or something. I don't know. Their most recent book was at the library. What does that even mean? Yeah. That they bought or that they read. Yeah. There's a lot of like it just feels misguided, the the article. And I don't mean to just come down hard on PW again, but I just I feel like this is trying to make a point out of nothing. Um maybe it's not nothing, right? But you know, are is there data here? Probably. Is it being uh well explained to us? No. And then the conclusions that they're drawing just seem pretty far-fetched, I guess, based off of my own.

David 37:51

Well, the guild stresses it strongly supports availability of books through various channels and formats. It also notes that authors aren't benefiting from wider availability of their books. I, you know, that's that is like they're making a conclusion that because it's wider availability, that's why you're earning less money. Right. I don't know. And but there's no mention of fragmented marketplaces. Yes. They're mentioning different channels, but marketplaces are or rather audiences are smaller, they're more segmented than ever before. We don't have mass culture like we used to.

Mick 38:22

Even author contracts are changing, right? There's a lot of sort of there's money being left on the table all the time. And you as an agent know this. There's there's the conversations that are happening at contract level are getting much more solidified, and like you you don't have as much uh leverage or or leeway, I guess, with some of these. Because you're talking about a whole broad spectrum of people that I mean, one author is totally different from another author. The authors you're pitching are very different from the ones that were being pitched to you when you were as Andrin.

David 39:00

Yeah, right?

Mick 39:01

Those those agents are seeing different types of authors than you're seeing. Right. And they're seeing different contracts than you're seeing. So you might have more um bargaining power than one of the higher up authors is gonna have because they're gonna get more of that typical uh boilerplate contract. And and those are midlisters. I mean, if you're you're talking about like front listers, sure, they have plenty of bargaining power because they're getting other offers authors from um houses. But like I just don't think you can say there is an average author, first of all.

David 39:34

Right.

Mick 39:35

And then average author earnings, if you look at that graph, kind of does a disservice in general.

David 39:39

It's more totally does. Yeah, it's more than a lot of people.

Mick 39:41

Because it's the top ten percent of authors, yeah. You need to lop that off.

David 39:44

Like the authors guild is um their their job is to be advocates for authors. Right. That's what they're that's what they're trying to do here.

Mick 39:53

But I mean an average author, an actual average author, not giving us the average overall authors, you know what I mean? Like that's not helpful. Yeah. Anyway, I just think there's there's a lot of um truth to the old adage. Uh I think it was Mark Twain who says there's lies, damn lies, and statistics. It feels like this is statistics, and you're just giving me this article based off of some data points.

David 40:21

Yeah.

Mick 40:22

I don't want to be dismissive. Yeah. But well it makes me mad.

David 40:25

Right. I I mean we could talk about more context here. The article does go on and it kind of singles out libraries. Um, and I I I know one person in the publishing business that's like, what what is this? What is this? Yeah. Um the study also addresses another flash point over digital books, digital lending by libraries. Since ebooks were first introduced, authors and publishers have worried that the lack of friction, i.e., the need to go to the library to pick up a book, would lead to a surge in ebook lending and at the expense of sales. According to the survey results, the data suggests that that is indeed happening. Active library members were found to buy 40%, 42% fewer book new books, 42% fewer new books than non-members. And the substitution effect is strongest for the most popular, widely stocked authors. Okay. Yeah, I'm trying actually, I'm just trying to get my head around that. I I again, though, it's starting to talk about the digital lending is causing an effect, but people aren't really reading ebooks that much.

Mick 41:32

As much.

David 41:32

It might be the audio a little bit. I I would grant that. But I still don't think that it's it is um getting, you know, getting library members into a library and that they're doing that less. That's I don't know that that's the why authors are learning or making less money these days. I just definitely don't think it's because of the e the e editions.

Mick 41:55

No, exactly.

David 41:56

Yeah.

Mick 41:56

I just don't think that library readers are the typical reader either. Like if you're looking at book sales, how many people who buy books in a Barnes and Noble are library readers? Like that that might be an interesting data point. And they're not even considering it. And and like it's it's I I want to go back to Marshall McLuhan or something, like and go, you know, let's break this down because the television, the radio, the advent of print itself from the very beginning has been like this. Oh no, we're the you know, reading is in decline. Like that's another big article that was in the Atlantic recently. Like, reading is in decline. Like, how often do you hear this? Yeah, and and then there's truth. They're just blaming the new technology, whatever the new technology is.

David 42:37

And that's and that's affected libraries too. For sure. It's a new technology. Exactly. I mean, honestly, too, like the library we're doing this podcast in, yeah, it's a pretty new library, like just five years, maybe. Right. And um, I you know, I I remember first coming in here going, Wow, there's not that many books. There's not that many books. Yeah, there's it's a pretty good size outsized building for what it is. They have a lot of things.

Mick 42:59

They should have more books.

David 43:00

Yeah, it almost even seems like in the space where they do have books, they probably could have crammed more in. Yeah.

Mick 43:05

Oh no, they could have a much larger collection. I I think maybe they're growing it, but maybe. And and a lot of it is online. I I get a bunch of audiobooks. Yeah. Not ebooks, but and their podcast room is getting a lot of use, and the study rooms here always look full. Yeah, and they have events, they have a petting zoo outside right now. Right, that's true. So they're getting kids in to read Dogman, assumedly, and whatever else they love. Right. But, you know, is is that what's really causing authors' uh revenue to decline?

David 43:35

It's more like the reason the li this library is a different kind of library is isn't the reason are the reasons why authors' revenue is declined. It's not because of the library itself. Not the library itself. Yeah.

Mick 43:45

Yeah. Yeah. Library copies of books, we all know they cost like way more than a general um uh sale. So so like libraries actually can be a boon for an author. Like if a bunch of libraries are buying their books, that's a lot of road pay for them. So I don't know. I just I I I don't I don't want to dog on PW.

David 44:10

I just the authors guild in this case. It's because of the study. They paid for the study and the direction the questions that were asked in the study. Maybe the questions are it's good directional data that authors are making less money. But let's talk about like bigger, wider factors going on. Yeah. Um maybe it's hard to cram all that into a short article online. But um that I think that's that's really the the bigger question is you know, why are you are you in this for the money? That's one big thing.

Mick 44:39

Yeah. Um that's a good starting place.

David 44:41

Uh you know, what what what does it take to earn more than $10,000 a year? That's another good question. Um, it's not just making sure libraries are paying more money for books or that we're limiting ebook consumption because it's not that high to begin with. Exactly. What are you gonna do? Um or it's not that there's too many channels somehow and we need to limit that. Right. I think there is some truth to things like audiobook uh subscriptions not paying as much royalties as they used to in the past. I think there's some truth to that, I've heard.

Mick 45:16

Or even that Kindle Direct, unlimited, whatever that is.

David 45:19

And I don't doubt that the the media, the the owners of the media distribution channels and the media companies themselves are squeezing authors. Um I I I see that too.

Mick 45:34

But overall, yeah, I don't know that authors' revenues are down, I mean maybe cumulative from all those uh I think it's I think it gets back to your question about being a sociologist and what how are we structured as a society today?

David 45:48

And does it make it easy to you know, first off, there's a lot more authors. There's a lot more authors out there, right? And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but you know, it obviously it creates competition or or you know, everybody has a lot of choices. That that's a that's a tr that's a phrase you hear a lot right ever since Starbucks came along the scene.

Mick 46:07

Well, and sure. I I guess I just you know, and even with the readers are our reading is in decline sort of catchphrase now, it just feels like I know everything's always been that re reading is in decline. I I just don't think this is new, and I don't think the answer is to go back to some old-fashioned days of your and try and make people read books or try and make them go buy it at Business Barnes and Noble.

David 46:34

There's also talk of the of not nonfiction book sales being down across the board. Yeah. And let's talk about that. It's not it's not because libraries are lending ebooks.

Mick 46:43

No, exactly.

David 46:43

Um it's more, it's more and and then there's more choices, there's more options, we're entertaining ourselves to death. People are looking at AI, they're looking at Substack, they're looking at podcasts. They're replacing that information. And but but again, in even in that conversation, we might lament that people are reading less, uh, but it's it's really the the the percentage numbers aren't as high as you might think. Right, right. Um it oftentimes these are conversations about single digit percentage decreases. And maybe it means things have moved and shifted rather than things are going away.

Mick 47:20

Exactly. And and you know, like I do, I get a lot of information from a lot of different sources. But like you turn on the closed captions on YouTube and you're reading, you're reading the TED talk. Uh-huh. That's I mean, tell me that's not like reading a book.

David 47:35

Right.

Mick 47:35

That's like reading a book. So if reading is in decline just because book sales are down, don't tell me that don't write that article.

David 47:42

I'm just saying, or you're reading your captions on your Instagram post or yeah, or whatever it is.

Mick 47:47

If it's coming to you and it's a video and you're just listening to it, you're reading it, and it's coming at you very fast. So if if kids aren't reading as fast as they used to, then I'm sorry, but that's wrong. They are. They're actually probably reading faster than they used to. Yeah. And our attention spans down? Sure, maybe by some data points, but like I mean in another way, they're spending like eight hours, nine hours on their phones. Their attention span is just fine.

David 48:12

Yeah.

Mick 48:13

It's just we're we're putting we're putting too much emphasis in the old way, right? Or what we assume to be this decline, and not recognizing that there's uh a huge increase in many other ways if you just like reframe that information. Now, maybe there's not a huge increase in the money that is going into authors' pockets, but there is always an increase in how many books are are being sold, how many publishers, like like you saw the lines of like publishers' revenues and stuff, it's always up. Like, why is this? I would look at like uh Amazon or uh Audible. Are there subscription is their subscription base growing? Absolutely, yes. I know it is, I don't even have to look. Why is that? It's because they're pricing it effectively, they're making it very competitive, they're giving you enough for free, they're giving you a free trial, whatever. Publishers need to be responsive, just like authors need to be responsive to market demands, and not just say, oh, woe is us and the sky is falling and stuff. I just don't think that helps anybody.

David 49:22

I think it becomes a question of um where are you getting your immersive experience? Because that's what we've always said about books, and that you can't get that from social media captions or close captioning on a show. Right. Where are you getting your immersive experience? Where are you getting that physical book you were talking about earlier that you put on yourself becomes a part of your identity by looking at it and you feel like you've lived that life? Book two that maybe you don't read from cover to cover, although people do that. I um someone I know recently said that they stayed up all night reading a book. I've never done that. I don't know how you do you do that. Yeah, I've never done that. But I was real I marveled. I marveled. I thought it was amazing. I love it. Um, but um, but I'm more like I've got several books going at once and I pick them up over time. You can't do that with digital media as easily.

Mick 50:13

No.

David 50:14

I mean you can you can someone will always I can always hear someone in my head saying, Well, but I do this. But I mean, but but the print books make that there's just something about them that's different. Like like there's different things about them. The fact that they're physical makes them different for one thing. Yep. Um but but it's like where do we get that immersive experience? And I think as people who come from religious, spiritual book publishing professions, yeah, supposedly, um, that I think that's that's what our question should be. Or even as authors writing books for the life of the spirit. That's great. Whatever however you might define that.

Mick 50:53

Yeah.

David 50:54

Um, I think that's that's really what we should be leaning into, and that's what we'll be having conversations about on podcasts, and getting, you know, that's what we'll having conversations that are not necessarily even related to the book, but the bigger conversation that book the book contributes to. Yeah. Um, I think that's that's what we we need more than ever. And I don't think that the 60,000-word print book medium is is is is a relic of the 20th century, which is one comment I saw on a thread about this conversation. Right. Like, no, I mean there's still way or something. There's still like gazillions of books being sold all the time.

Mick 51:31

It will never not be prestigious to be an author of those books because you have a power over people. Right.

David 51:36

I was Star Trek, and in the 24th century, Captain Picard was holding up holding, you know, up a book about the book. Yeah, and like that, that's wonderful. I actually um I went looking for a book by um Otto Rank, an early psychoanalyst. Yeah, probably like the second best psycho or the second in command of the psychoanalytic movement at one point, either before or after Young, probably after. Otto Rank. Yeah. That's a great name. And um I went looking for his book on the art and the artists. The artist and art. It's it's a whole psychoanalytic book about art. And um I found all these different editions online and they were kind of expensive. Yeah. And then I found one that was um hardbound, cloth, cloth overboard. Um, and uh it, you know, I went, this can't be right. It was it was a lot less expensive at Thrift Books. So there you go. Yeah, in terms of authors making money. Now you now you're giving one example. But but I was thrilled when it came because oh my gosh, this is like this looks like it's an original edition from 1938 or whatever, or 1932, I think. And um I I just like I'm so happy I have this physical artifact that I'm gonna just relish reading slowly. And even though he's a hundred years, it's a hundred years old in terms of its wisdom and so on. But it you know, well, it's a beautiful object, too.

Mick 53:05

I mean, that is one thing I'm sort of sad about. Like the new books just don't look good, they don't they don't seem like they're built to last, a lot of them. And so it's rare to find a book that's pretty that you're like, I'm gonna give this to my kids someday, you know. Like, but that's what has happened with some of these libraries, and and that's why I value these books. I think sometimes what we're talking about with a decline of reading is were you read to as a kid? You know, it's just that. If you were read to as a kid, you're gonna have a desire to read books. And and we know this just from studies, right? Psychology and and stuff. Uh, if if you were read to as a kid, now that's a privilege, right? If if you had parents who were taking time to read, you know, picture books to you. Right. Or they gave you board books, right? And you let read yourself in your room, like most of what I did. But like there's a reason you love books, and it comes from those early memories. And you don't realize those are being evoked when you read a book, but every time I read a book, those like not specifically, right? Right, but they're it's there. All that history from from my reading days.

David 54:16

And what is that? Is that is that when you talk about immersive experience and a shared experience, right? You're talking about your parents reading too much. Exactly. Good memories, right?

Mick 54:25

So your parents on your grandma's lap or something. They did. Your grandmother read to you. Yep, yep. Yeah, and I mean they're probably Christian books, but you know, when I think back on it, it wasn't all Christian books. There was like Baron's name Bears, there was you know, some of my favorite stuff. Of uh, I mean, w what uh Dr. Seuss and and Richard Scary's and and you know, I'm remembering reading um Spot the Dog to my kids, and like when I read a book, I there all those things kind of come back to me.

David 54:55

Yeah.

Mick 54:56

In in sort of a disembodied way. It's not like I'm thinking about that memory, but it it it is an experience. And when you talk about what what immersive experience, where are you getting that immersive experience? Yeah, it typically is when I am reading a book. It's because I'm holding the book and I'm sitting there and I'm reading words on a page that somehow are making sense to me and making me feel things. Like, how does that happen? I don't know, but it's an amazing thing. I agree. And everyone who reads gets this. And it's this shared experience that we're all having, kind of, right, across time and across space.

David 55:30

Like when you read a book, I think you put like that slower experience of reading a book. I think like threads come together in your brain and in your, you know, in your just they just threads come together. So I put it that way. And you see connections that you don't get when you're you had no idea they that was scrolling on a device. Yeah, the older I get, the more I I hope. Or even as an audio book, I would I would say it's not the same. Right. Like I I've heard people say that like reading, like sometimes they'll want to read the print book as well as the audio. The temptation with audio is you speed it up.

Mick 56:05

Because you're trying to consume it faster. I think because you can, right? You can you can speed up that voice. And you're doing it when you're doing something else. Right. Yeah, exactly. Whereas a book, you're probably just sitting down.

David 56:16

Yep. You're focusing, it's quiet. Yes. A printed book. Yeah. Yeah, anyway.

Mick 56:22

Maybe ebook two, but but I do think that uh probably people are doing that less. I'm doing it less because I have a phone and I have Netflix. And so you're gonna probably read less. Well, I read less because I'm reading books that I have to read for money, um as an editor. But like I think a lot of people, yeah, sure, they would be able to say anecdotally, they're not reading as much.

David 56:45

Yeah.

Mick 56:45

But we're not usual.

David 56:46

We're not the usual readers, yeah. Our reading is so messed up because we have to we're it's part of our job. I I It's like I can't read sometimes for work.

Mick 56:55

Yeah, I'm always like, I have to read this crappy book instead of a good one. We golf. Yeah, exactly. All right, well, we've belabored this, but I I I do think our listeners um typically want to know uh, you know, at least what I'm hearing from people. I don't know if you hear from people who listen to the podcast. Uh-huh. People are telling me now, and so I'm like, that's in my head. Yeah. But like they want to hear our opinions about things, but like it's kind of the behind-the-scenes stuff. So I'd love to share more of that in future episodes. Uh-huh. Also, what we're reading specifically. Um, I just finished a great book, Matt Haig, this morning, How to Stop Time. My wife has been wanting me to read it for a while, and it's it's so well done. It's this earlier stuff, 2017, but it's it's really immersive, like you were talking about.

David 57:43

So I'm reading a book on ancient Celt history, like from the very beginning. Which is not Ireland, everybody. It's actually in Europe. It's actually started in Austria. In Holstadt, Austria is one of the earliest known um beginnings of Celtic spirituality. But what's wonderful about it is it's helping to me, helping me to retrain my brain that there is other ancient history than the one we were taught in Sunday school. Right. Where it's it is sort of like the archetypal history of Adam and Eve and so on. Well, that Adam and Eve story was written after the Celts. Right.

Mick 58:20

There's a lot of things.

David 58:21

And there's European spirituality that predates that's cool that that story from the Jewish tradition that we've appropriated, you can you might say. Um, you know, this and and and the European tradition of ancient Celts is like predates Jesus. Why aren't we talking about any of that? Yeah, you never learn about it. Oh, because Jesus is better. Well Yeah, but if this came from I want to learn about these folks in Germany rather than someone in in a further a land further away. And I think I think we miss that. We miss that there's an in indigenity to that that we that we've lost. Yeah uh because of this sort of monolithic monotheism that we've that we've all been, especially in America.

Mick 59:06

Yeah.

David 59:07

Um so that that's it's a very dry book. It's like reading a textbook, sure. But it's it's sort of it's sort of retraining my brain. Yeah. And it's it's really quite enjoyable.

Mick 59:16

Yeah. That's immersive for you. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

David 59:20

And it puts me to sleep at night sometimes.

Mick 59:24

Added bonus. Yeah. All right, everybody. We'll we'll cut it here and and uh continue next time. Thanks for being here. Thank you.