Writing the Story that Chose You

In this episode, David and I talked about the difference between writing books that seem important or interesting, and writing the stories that you didn't choose, but must be told. That's a massive difference, and it's not often talked about enough. So we talked about it. 

I shared two quotes: one from Jeff Foster about being less prepared and more vulnerable, and another from Brené Brown on owning your story. Both fit nicely into what we're really trying to do in these conversations: to take time for a more honest response to the big disruptions in our lives, and to consider what we want to do about them. Relating, sharing, writing, and living, all ultimately working toward better integration.

Jeff Foster's book is You Were Never Broken. 

Brené Brown's is The Gifts of Imperfection.

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

Mick 0:00

Hey everybody. Welcome back. Publishing Disrupted.

David 0:04

Publishing Disrupted. We're about to disrupt stuff.

Mick 0:08

Or we're feeling disrupted. Or both. Yeah. Yeah. This is this is Mick Silva, by the way, editor. Editor? Yeah.

David 0:17

And that's all I am. Yeah. I'm the other disembodied voice is David Morris, publisher and literary agent. Literary agent.

Mick 0:26

We're two former Christian publishing industry professionals.

David 0:29

Yes, exhausted Gen Xers. You're Gen X, right? Very Gen X. Yeah, I'm I'm the early Gen X. Yeah. I don't know if we've said this before. Yeah, I'm like mid to late. Yeah. I'm almost a boomer. But no way. No. No way. No, I have way too much sarcasm. I don't think you can claim that.

Mick 0:46

Yeah. Uh professionals learning to navigate the massive independent book market. There, I finally read the the entire line. Yeah. Um, but this podcast in specific is looking to explore the ways in which book publishing is changing and how writers can best meet that challenge. So when we first started over a year ago now, we're actually over a year in. Uh we were talking on uh Zoom um post-COVID and post is Andervin, having um just dialogue, missing missing our meetings. We would have one-on-ones, but then we'd have like editorial meetings as well. And I I personally was missing that. Yeah. So we would meet because you had gone freelance as well, um, about all the different changes that had disrupted us and things that we were looking at and discussion of our professional industry stuff, everyday professional work.

David 1:39

Yeah, but like beliefs too.

Mick 1:41

Like beliefs, like, does this even still matter? Right. Like like, why are we doing this? Right, you know, so existential stuff. And the fact that you had a background in psychology, your doctorate in that, and then that I was um aspiring to be a bit more uh thoughtful and considered in how I was conducting myself, um, even thinking of the fact that I had a career because I sort of fell into Christian publishing, yeah, having wanted to be a writer. Um, I said, let's let's pursue this. And we just started this podcast. And now we're kind of into it in a year. And you were saying before we started, like things that I'm concerned about still, like, are we going to start repeating ourselves? Do we have more topics? Do we have more uh people that we can invite on?

David 2:25

Yeah, we are gonna have more guests.

Mick 2:26

All of that I want to do. I think there's much more to talk about. Yeah, there's much more being disrupted. In fact, if you look back, I just noticed this this morning. If you look back at when Mark Knoll's book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind was published.

David 2:39

Yeah, it's ancient by now.

Mick 2:41

It was 1994, folks.

David 2:42

It's still a scandal, too, by the way.

Mick 2:44

It's more than a scandal, it's a fiasco. I think it's like it's out of control. Right. Like the scandal has broken out into this like metastasized virus of cancer that's taking over the country.

David 2:57

There's a lot of PhDs being given out by evangelical colleges, but there's still a scandal of the evangelical mind, by the way.

Mick 3:03

Erica Kirk was like given this honorary doctorate at Hillsdale this past week or something. Just like, give me a break, yeah, people. Yeah. Her husband spoke against even going to college. Like I don't even understand where Especially for women, I'm sure.

David 3:16

Right.

Mick 3:16

Yeah, right. Anyway, we don't need to get into that.

David 3:19

It's like a reverse they're doing a reversal.

Mick 3:22

Yeah. Totally.

David 3:23

So anyway. It's not a real degree, by the way. So we're just it's just an honorary degree. Honorary degree. Yeah, yeah.

Mick 3:30

She didn't have to do anything for it. Uh not by men, probably. But like traditional publishing, yeah. Evangelical Christian publishing is the traditional publishing model. Um spiritual but not religious is kind of a term that we have claimed um reluctantly because of the lack of a better one. Um, but that's where we are personally, but we still are facing professional challenges, and we'd like to still discuss some of the stuff going on in the industry. One of those things recently, uh it's exciting actually news uh about um Erdmans from editor Lisa Cockrell's doing a new imprint of literary nonfiction, I guess they're calling it. Um which I I mean you could call it anything. Called in the title of the imprint? In yeah, what's what's it called? I forget.

David 4:18

Uh Here Below.

Mick 4:20

Here below. Thank you. Yeah, that's interesting.

David 4:22

That sounds like a we've heard that phrase before.

Mick 4:24

It sounds familiar. Yeah, but from Urdman's, I'm I'm kind of excited to see what they do. And there's a lot of uh books out there, as we even saw this past uh month in the Calvin Conference. A lot of spiritual writers, memoirists, uh historians, people who are uh maybe still in the camp somewhat in Christianity, in evangelicalism, even Catholicism, but uh have some misgivings, have been disrupted in some ways, and want to explore that in literary nonfiction. Right. It's time to go check out what they're doing at Eerdman's.

David 4:57

So what do you what do you think literary nonfiction is?

Mick 4:59

So I mean it it's it's a broad term. I would love to have Lisa on to kind of just define that a bit more. That would be a good idea. Yeah. She's in town. Yeah. Um, I think if we if so if you go back to like there's creative nonfiction, right? That's that's in the MFA programs, that's what you would study if you were going to be in in sort of literary nonfiction. I'm I'm thinking that's a catch-all for that term. Yeah. Creative nonfiction. What the hell does that mean? Memoir. I mean, obviously historical stuff like what Kristen Dumay is doing probably falls into that category. Literary in the sense of like it's taking um this goes back to my English training, but T. S. Elliott's idea of standing upon the shoulders of the giants who went before you. So there's a an existing heritage, a lineage of literature that you are drawing upon to create your own conclusions in your own books. Uh-huh. And whether that's memoir or historical or even self-help in some ways, right? That can be literary nonfiction. It's going to a higher-minded um audience, people who are readers. They're not necessarily academic, but they do enjoy, let's say, Barbara Brown Taylor and Diana Butler Bass, as opposed to uh not to be dismissive, but like Jen Hatmakers of the world or you know, Beth Moore or whoever.

David 6:12

It would be fun to have it would really be fun to have Lisa Cockerel on and just define that word, literary, not that phrase literary nonfiction. There, you know, how do you break that down? Right.

Mick 6:22

Like what's you know, you kind of know you kind of know it when you see it from what you're know it when you see it, you know it's a little more heady, I suppose, in some ways.

David 6:30

The lineage thing is good. It's educated. Like you're right, educated lineage, you're you're you're you're bringing up you're bringing up things we already know, right, and finding refer to familiar stuff, yeah. Synthesis. Yeah. Hopefully without pontificating or being elitist.

Mick 6:48

Well, and integrating is a word that we had talked about. Like how do you uh integrate with what came before with what is true now, and how do we then apply that to our lives?

David 6:58

Uh that's but but it's also probably marked by certain qualities like slowing down, slowing slower, noticing things. Noticing. Yeah, we've talked about this a lot actually. That's because that's what we're we feel like that's what we're missing now more than ever. Right. Yeah. There's what we want in this. There's just not a lot of that going on. Yeah. Um because of the way publishing has changed, that's actually been one of the things we see less of, I think.

Mick 7:22

Yeah. Right. Right. So yeah, I had a had a um quote that I'd like to start with just because it it tells me what I'm doing. It reminds me what I'm doing. Because I we often have that question, like, why are we why are we even doing this? Because you can get just so thrown off by some random post on social media that I'll read and you know, from an author or from you know someone else, maybe in publishing. Yeah. I just be like, oh my gosh, that's not I don't we're not even in the same universe. Like, I don't even know where they're coming from. I I almost want to disown my own industry sometimes. Yeah.

David 7:56

A random post about what?

Mick 7:58

Or it it might have just Christian nationalist undertones. It might, oh my gosh, CT Christianity Today magazine. I don't know what's going on over there, but there's so many posts now that are coming across my feed that are just so fundamentalist sounding. Yeah. Like they're making it.

David 8:14

Well, they had a they had a new editor put in charge who comes from World Magazine. It makes me just I mean, it's just the fundamentalist credentials are just like shouting.

Mick 8:22

It was going in the right direction for a while under Russell Moore. Well, it was at least in a dialogue, yeah, right? Open conversation that was questions being asked. Now there's no no more questioning happening. It's all uh we need to batten down the hatches and make sure people are going to church. I'm just like, oh my gosh, this is not the same CT. It's not going anywhere either. So, anyway, the quote that I I had uh from is from Jeff Foster, a spiritual writer and poet, um comes from his book, You Were Never Broken, which I need to read. Sounds like a good one. Uh, but the quote is uh be a little more naked, a little slower, know a little less what you're about to say. Be a little less prepared, a little messier, a little more willing to expose your shaky, vulnerable heart. Be surprised at your own responses. Don't numb yourself with the same old stories. Stumble if you need to. It's okay. You are held. I love that idea. I need to read this probably daily uh for a while and just see what happens. Because uh first of all, I need to slow down. I know that that's like number one.

David 9:27

Yeah, because you read at the time one more time, and this is from a book.

Mick 9:30

Yeah, a book called You Are Never Broken by Jeff Foster. Be a little more naked, a little slower, know a little less what you're about to say. Be a little less prepared, a little messier, a little more willing to expose your shaky, vulnerable heart. Be surprised at your own responses. Yeah. Don't numb yourself with the same old stories. Stumble if you need to. It's okay, you are held.

David 9:58

Yeah.

Mick 9:59

Learning to navigate the changes and disruptions in this industry requires, first of all, me doing everything you just said.

David 10:07

Completely completely anathema too to Christian evangelical publishing.

Mick 10:12

It's like going in a totally different direction. Yeah. Right.

David 10:15

And when you see those posts, which always has anchor yet end with a certain here's the takeaway.

Mick 10:22

Let's let's all make sure we give the come to Jesus. No questions.

David 10:26

It's like certainty about something.

Mick 10:28

Yeah, we're trying to batten down the hatches. We're trying to make things seem very certain. And like if you don't have certainty, well then you don't have faith. I would say that's the exact opposite of the truth. It totally is. Yeah. What faith is, is the lack of certainty. It is it is the questioning process, it's the mystery that exists without having answered the question.

David 10:46

Yeah, there's that quote or that saying, um, you know, doubt, doubt is the beginning of faith.

Mick 10:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I can say that with with all certainty. Yeah. I can still be very evangelical and and dogmatic in how I say you can't be certain about anything. Yeah. Right? So it is, it's a very difficult, ironic stance sometimes. And then maybe that's where the sarcasm comes from. Because you can't really know anything in this world. Give me a break. And I'm not going to stand here and say that I have to uh have the answers for everybody. I'm not doing that anymore. I did that for a while. That's not fun. I'd rather be a little more naked, a little slower, and know less about what I'm supposed to say.

David 11:25

And it's what we're doing in this podcast, honestly, too. It's like we're not here with the top with the top five things you need to know or the latest news about this or that.

Mick 11:32

Either you like that or you don't. We'll bring in a little bit of that stuff, but yeah, I'm not gonna be be performing here.

David 11:37

Yeah, we're we're trying to um we're trying to figure things out by by having this conversation with each other in a public way.

Mick 11:45

Yeah.

David 11:46

Um and that makes it kind of vulnerable and shaky.

Mick 11:48

It's uncomfortable.

David 11:49

And are we really authentic? Are we really authorized to be doing what we're doing?

Mick 11:52

Absolutely not.

David 11:53

Yeah. Well, we do have a lot of publishing experience between the two of them.

Mick 11:57

I would say you are, but I'm I'm here as a as a Klingon mostly. But I I don't don't numb yourself with the same old stories, is is the part that I continually come back to. Yeah, that's a big thing. There's so many old stories being published in traditional houses that I'm just like, I know they're trying to fill a pipeline. We all get it. They they have to give to the masses what the masses clamor for, but like, do you do you have to? I was always told, well, someone's gonna publish it. Like that was the excuse for why we were doing what we were doing. Someone's gonna publish it, so why not us? Yeah, well, that doesn't even make any sense. Yeah. Sorry, getting yeah, riled up here.

David 12:37

Same old stories, same old stories, whether they're about yourself or they're about uh about the world around us.

Mick 12:44

I mean, we packaged them as though they were brand new. We both they looked brand new. Yeah, we put a new cover on old books all the time. Yeah.

David 12:52

Originally origin stories are a really big thing in evangelical publishing. Like you gotta have your yeah, you gotta have your uh coming to Jesus origin story or your church's origin story. Right. Um though that we've got like 300,000 churches in the United States, like and how 20,000, I don't know, 30,000 denominations. It's a lot, really, but someone's got it right out there. But the origin is important to to that when you when you're doing all when there's all that fracturing, right? You've got to stake a claim as to where your reality is. You've got to know where it came from. We get attached to those origin stories, don't we?

Mick 13:31

And they do feel warmed over, like I've heard it. Yeah, you've heard it over and over again. We were just looking at a proposal this week where just like I can't bring myself to care. I'm sorry. There might be something here in this book, and I'm sure some people would find it you know helpful. Right. But personally, I can't invest in this because it's just not scratching my itch. Right. And I'm I'm gonna burn out.

David 13:55

So back to that quote. Is it yeah, is it is you know, what what would that proposal have done better to own to not no that I'm getting to the other quote you were gonna write about? But what what what is it not that's not like what is it that's not messy?

Mick 14:13

What is it that's not well that's what I think is not fresh?

David 14:16

Why is he why is that person um uh not not um being clear about what they don't know? You know? Why can't you write a book about what you don't know? Try that. Try that on try writing a book uh try that. Try writing a book that you where the about something you don't know. I mean not not something you don't know anything about, but write about the fact that you don't know.

Mick 14:39

There you go. Yeah. And I think if you're writing to discover, that's a very different thing than if you're writing to convince or writing to fill a pipeline or to to answer uh the questions that people have for you, and you're gonna just tell them the answers that you have. Right? That's how that's the proposition, I think, often in Christian publishing is that you you know we have all the answers. Yeah. So we just need to offer them in a in as winsome a way and as compelling a way as possible is to get people in the door and then close the deal.

David 15:15

That's why a lot of the publishing ends up being a popularity contest rather than new the best.

Mick 15:21

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And instead, I think what we're looking for is is more of that questioning question asking, first of all. Like just um be honest about the things that you don't know right up front and say this isn't going to be a book about answers about like proving what I know and telling you, you know, how to live. Right. I don't I don't want that. Right. Um I don't know that I I don't like making this argument because it's just so Christian, but like I don't know that Jesus did that. And start out by saying, Look what I do and do it. He's saying, Here's a story, let me tell you about this guy who went on a journey.

David 16:03

There's a really, really, really popular self-help book out in the larger marketplace. And uh I was looking at the cover copy for it, and it was you know, the cover copy, which is always a little over the top, or some sometimes it can be over the top, a little little um you know, leaning in too hard, yeah, a little hyperbolic, but it used this phrase, take control of your life. Like I I'll tell you right now, I will never use that phrase on a book I work on. Yeah. Because you just yeah, like there's just no such thing for one thing. Yeah, yeah. And then what is why is that such a great promise? Like, are we such a mess? Right. Is things so bad? Right. Are we that like do we have that little respect for ourselves that the life we are currently leading actually actually needs now? Some of us are out of control. Now, sure for one reason or another.

Mick 16:59

That does exist.

David 17:01

Yeah, but by and large, do we need a best-selling book that's selling probably by now millions of copies telling us all we're out of we we, you know.

Mick 17:11

Don't you feel a little offended? I mean, just like in in your autonomy, in your authentic authentic way of living, like when someone says that taking control the assumption is that I'm out of control, first of all.

David 17:22

And that I have no life.

Mick 17:24

And then I have no life. Yeah. Yeah.

David 17:27

Why do we do that to ourselves? Why do we think that's an appealing thing? Right. Oh, I'm just not in control.

Mick 17:32

And and yet so many people buy it, hook, line, and sinker, man. That's what it has to tell you. I mean, this time it's gonna work.

David 17:38

The book promised a lot more, and it had some good points, without a doubt. Sure. But it's tainted to me by this idea that I'm not enough. And there's there isn't something that um you know I can discover in that sort of self-sufficiency, but self-like like advocacy or like like or adequacy as is.

Mick 18:02

Yeah, yeah, good. Good. Uh-huh. Now, now that's that's sort of a tenuous. But is that boring to write about in a book? It might be, or it's not gonna sell, that's for sure. Uh yeah, that's the problem. This is a tenuous sort of uh platform to stand on, too, because I mean, obviously you've got in the back of your head, well, I am a mess, and I want to take the Gen X approach, which is like, yeah, whatever, everyone's a mess. It's fine. Like, who cares? And laugh about it.

David 18:29

Oh, is that what I'm doing? I'm being a Gen X or not.

Mick 18:31

No, like just but if you weren't laughing about it, then I would worry because that's that's a little you know problematic. But like you gotta be able to see, like, yes, you're a mess, yes, you do need help, but you don't need a book to tell you how to take control of your life. You need to just do it in your life, like know and own it and slow down, first of all. Take take it take to heart. Probably Jeff, go get Jeff Foster's book. I haven't read it, I'm gonna go read it.

David 18:55

But we'll well, we're talking about we talked, we started talking about literary nonfiction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the new the new imprint that's coming out from Urban. Um so you know, is is writing about something is writing is writing about writing in such a way that you're saying you don't know something, is that the beginning of literary nonfiction?

Mick 19:18

It could be. I think I think there's a good argument for that.

David 19:22

I don't know. I don't know what I I don't these are things I don't know.

Mick 19:26

Yeah. Or or I'm I'm going on a journey by writing this book in order to discover.

David 19:32

I would love a self-help book that said the ten things I don't know. That to me actually worked my attention.

Mick 19:39

Yeah, I was just in some ways can capture this. Like, I started this book because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And when I got to the end of it, I realized I don't know what anything. That would be a really like I would love to read that.

David 19:53

That sounds really like but the point is that sounds like fun.

Mick 19:57

Yeah, exactly. I'd like to read that.

David 19:58

I don't want to, I'm so exhausted. I don't want to hear another 10 ways of live living my life. I'm done. I'm yeah, I mean, uh, maybe that's some of that comes with age too. Sure. And I've read a lot of that stuff. Sure. And I've figured out a few things. I've probably figured out a few things, but yet still realize that I'm the same person I was 50 years ago. Yeah. When I was whatever.

Mick 20:17

I don't know how we've changed in many ways, but we're we're still you know learned a lot.

David 20:23

A lot.

Mick 20:23

What are they?

David 20:24

Mostly through suffering.

Mick 20:25

Yeah, through suffering and through grief. Yeah. Through actually attending to your grief.

David 20:29

Yeah, not through reading a self-help book.

Mick 20:31

And dealing with it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Not not just reading a self-help book. Yeah. Um, Kate Meyer's book on you know grief. Yeah. Uh that I got to edit. That was really helpful to me. Yeah, that was helpful. Did point out a lot of things. Yeah. And remind me of the title, which is a great title.

David 20:46

Faith doesn't erase grief.

Mick 20:47

Faith doesn't erase grief. Come on, people, that's a great title. Owning it's it's about owning your story. Basically, and saying, at least when I was editing it, I I got so much out of it, and Kate is a wonderful author. Um, owning her story was help what what helped her to be able to help other people own their story. And so she put that in her book. And yes, there's a method there, and she's taking apart some of the you know, 12 steps of grieving and saying, you know, largely there's just three stages you work through them at at your own rate and at different times for everybody. Right. And I just love the permission, first of all, that that it gave me to feel like I grieve in a different way than I think I've heard before. I get the denial stage, and that uh of course is emblematic of grief. But um if you will actually work through some of the losses in your life, you will find that you have a story that you didn't choose, it chose you, yeah, and now you could either own it or not. Right. And I think that that's what I really appreciated about her book. Is it literary nonfiction? I don't know. It's more self help.

David 22:00

To own it, like in her case, she's talking about how emotions are things that our culture, particularly religious culture, you know, just is really inept at getting at how we're actually feeling. And I think that gets back to just you know what writing about what you don't know. Um, you know, I I don't know about what my feelings are, maybe. I don't know what I'm feeling. Yeah, it's hard to even identify. So what is that? What it yeah. I mean, I I can't, you know, what that's gotta be a way to go on a path of discovery. Like I'm feeling some things, I don't know what they are. But my church says, hey, I should stop worrying about it. Give it to God. But then that's that's your clue, though, is like there's some there's some things here. No, yeah, dig into it. I don't know what that is. Let's talk about that. Right.

Mick 22:45

This is what happened. This is what I felt is what it felt like. And then find other people felt similar things.

David 22:51

Yeah.

Mick 22:51

Man, that's so refreshing and and encouraging to say sounds like something I'd want to read.

David 22:56

Me too.

Mick 22:57

I felt that too. Sounds interesting. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Renee Brown has that quote um that I just I feel like it's it's very applicable. And she talks about the vulnerability that Jeff Foster was was saying, be more vulnerable. But when you get there, you recognize that there's there's a limit to that vulnerability often, and and it's in like accepting your story or owning your story. And her quote is when when we define the story, or deny the story, sorry. When we deny the story, it defines us. But when we own the story, we can write a brave new ending. Denying the story will define us, and that's that's counterintuitive. How how does not owning your story come to define you? Well, I think that's what happens because you're denying it. It actually becomes the thing that defines you more and more whether you recognize it or not. The denial defines the fact that you're denying the truth. That's right. I've experienced that, I've lived that. Um in my former iteration as a Christian acquisitions editor, I was denying my own story and saying that I could just uh basically do the pantomime, you know, perform. Yeah. Uh-huh. I'm I'm moving hands hands against the visible wall right now. Doing the mime movement. I I felt like I was doing that more and more, and it became like a straitjacket. And it started to define me. It started to define the way I thought, the way I lived, the the friendships I had, the conversations I would even have with my with my immediate family, my friends. Um, I started looking to the world to exploit it in terms of like what ideas can I put forward as an acquisition person.

David 24:40

Because there's a lot of money involved. That's right. In in this pantomime.

Mick 24:44

And and this is a word that really helped me was not just performing, because performative faith is super rampant right now, but extractive faith. There is a version of faith that becomes extractive, as though this we're reclaiming it for God, and you'll hear this language a lot in churches and in books.

David 25:04

Um it's an interesting choice of words, extractive, right?

Mick 25:07

It it feels like it's almost that exploitative makes me think of digging feeling, strip mining. Yeah, so we can extract the value out of it, and because that we're trying to reclaim that for God in some way, or we're trying to like take take the kingdom. Like this is the Christian nationalist kind of um paradigm, is that everything belongs to God, so we have to reclaim it as Christians. That's our goal in the world. Even though God created it in the first place, even though basically all they're saying is it just gives them permission to do whatever the hell they want. Yeah. Um, but anyway, uh the story will come to define you the more you deny it, the more you're like not ex- and this is just true of grief, too. If you think that you don't have to go through a grieving process after a loss, yeah, well, that's gonna come to be this monkey on your back, and you're gonna feel that pressure, and you're gonna need to attend to it at some point.

David 25:56

It it's sort of like a false story, maybe. Yeah. Um uh this false belief that a diminished, maybe even story, but yet nevertheless a story that you then are attached to. The story is I'm fine. It's become who you are.

Mick 26:09

I don't need to deal with that. That didn't matter.

David 26:12

Yeah.

Mick 26:14

Yeah. And and when you stop and you realize, okay, if I owned that story, if I said this happened, it hurt, it changed me, what does that mean? You can start to write a brave new ending. And I like to change that last part, the brave new ending part, it feels a little cliche cliche to say you can start control of your life. Living a different life. You can start, yeah, rather than take control of your life, like find a new life. Allow it to be a little out of control or messy or whatever it needs to be.

David 26:42

Yeah, find new new life in the messiness. Yeah.

Mick 26:45

Embrace that mystery. It's it's a wonderful place to live.

David 26:48

Like if you take control of your life or you find a brave new life, it's you know, is it go is it taking you to still this false story? Right, ultimately. Um I mean I mean we all want to be brave for sure.

Mick 27:02

We all want some control, but but yeah, I think it's promising a conclusion, maybe.

David 27:07

Right. Brave the knife sounds a little over like overdone, overwrought. Yeah. You know, like all right, I'll I you know, I don't wake up feeling very brave most of the time. I hope you do though. And honestly, I don't want to I don't want to be called more brave than any of the than the next person because we're all brave just by breathing and walking around. Right.

Mick 27:25

Um yeah, no, that's true. We're we're explorers, we're fellow explorers, I guess. Some people explorers are brave, right? And I think if you're gonna like own your story, that is a brave thing to do. So I appreciate that she's saying it. It's just I don't want to focus so much on the ending, I want to focus on kind of the open-ended part of this life that we're living, rather than saying I've extracted what I needed of value and now I've put it into the right form, and now I'm selling it to someone.

David 27:56

Right.

Mick 27:56

I don't want to do that as an author, as an acquisitions person, as an editor, as a publisher, you're not looking for those kind of people.

David 28:03

What do you think it means to own your story? We've c we've talked about this already just now. Yeah. What do you think that means owning owning your story?

Mick 28:12

Yeah, I mean, so so at least I can only speak from my own experience. Uh it became increasingly uncomfortable for me to continually try to prop up the notion, this was just a notion that I had in my own mind, that I had to be uh all I had to have things together. I had to have the answers. I had to continue in a job that I didn't enjoy particularly, that I was kind of ill-fitted for. I've been fired from pretty much every professional uh editing job I've ever had.

David 28:48

Well, it's been in a certain culture of uh publishing.

Mick 28:51

But like that was defining me.

David 28:53

Yeah, and they do fire a lot of people in the culture.

Mick 28:57

As you know. Yeah. Uh but like that was defining me, and I think coming to own it required me re recognizing that the discomfort had a source, that the discomfort wasn't the world, quote unquote. The discomfort wasn't the devil trying to get a foothold in my life, and I needed to just batten down the hatches and pray for hedges around my life or whatever. Yeah, it wasn't working. Chris Christian system, church, whatever it was I was trying to use to prop it up, praying, God wasn't answering, wasn't working. And I had I had a choice to make. I could either accept the discomfort and say, Well, what's that trying to tell me? Right. There's a there's a thorn in my foot. Maybe I should actually look at it rather than try to keep running. Um accept that discomfort. I think you're yeah, I think accept the discomfort. Um recognize that that's not uncommon, that's not unique. I needed to see other people's and and read other people's stories. I I say books saved me, and that's true. There are many books that I could point to that that talk about this process. Uh Barbara Brown Taylor's leaving church was one.

David 30:10

Um Yeah, that that has that we keep to talking about that book, but um I should mention Rachel Held Evans too. Faith, there's a moment in in that book is is um where you're accepting where she's accepting some comfort that she just doesn't even know where it's coming from. Right, yeah. I think at least that's the way I read it. Yeah, yeah.

Mick 30:29

Um she tries to take over a a church and episcopal um uh priest and wanting to be the the pastor for this congregation and finds out it's it's not right for her. It's it's kind of killing her slowly.

David 30:46

So for like aspiring writers out there or editors who are right who are editing aspiring writers or writers or veteran writers, you know, maybe that's the beginning of of the of the the new story. Right. The story that wants to be told. Accept the discomfort. Like what's the discomfort that we not are necessarily trying to solve, right, but that we're trying to accept. And where does that lead us? Yeah.

Mick 31:15

Yeah. Yeah. And and I would I would even phrase that, I love how you said that, because it's something that's happening to you. You're not controlling it. You're not the one saying what your story is. Your story's telling you what your story is.

David 31:29

We don't control most of our lives. There's so much of our lives, we're so socially constructed. I feel like we could just put that in and we don't, you know, we think we have agency. Big capital letter. And it's just like it is so not what you think it is.

Mick 31:42

Right. It's not what you think it is. You're not in control in this much of your own.

David 31:46

In this individualistic society, we probably we we value individualism, and yet the funny the irony is we are so not in charge of our destinies or taking control of our lives.

Mick 31:57

Yeah, and yet we idolize people who it seems as though that's what they've done. Yeah. They had an idea, they went after it, it worked. Yeah. And we want that. We don't want the other story. Yeah. The other story is sad. Yeah. I wanted this thing, but it died, it crashed and burned, and now I'm a wasted shell of a human being. Yeah. So if we accept it.

David 32:17

It's no fun. If we if we start off a book talking about some comfort, discomfort we're accepting.

Mick 32:23

Yeah. Yeah. What does that look like structurally? Well, I think you have to start with that explosion, right? That's that's the car wreck that gets people interested. You're like, what blew up your life?

David 32:35

Right.

Mick 32:36

At least uh from an editor's perspective, that's where the story starts. Yeah.

David 32:40

Yeah. Which is hard to say. It's hard, it's hard to hard to define it. It's hard to go into detail about it and and even know what it is. Yep. And like, okay, I still have a car and I've made most of my payments and poor and destitute on the house, but my life got blown up. Exactly. You know?

Mick 32:56

Yeah. Um and sometimes you can't even accept, you can't even say what blew up your life.

David 33:01

Or maybe it didn't get blown up, but it's like something's off.

Mick 33:05

Yeah.

David 33:06

What's off? Something's off. I don't know what it is. Yeah. Like you could spend a few chapters just talking about that. Maybe the whole book.

Mick 33:13

You can spend the whole book talking about. But I think you do have to start with accepting it. Like that you want to accept it, that you're aware of it and willing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I I say this all the time. I think faith in my mind now is really just the willingness to be wrong.

David 33:29

Yeah.

Mick 33:29

I don't know. That's what faith is. I don't know.

David 33:32

If you can't start the conversation with that, then what's the conversation about? Exactly. Like that's chapter two. It's no conversation. It's a one-way, it's a one-way that's chapter one.

Mick 33:40

Like I thought I knew. Actually, I don't know. So if you want to come on that kind of journey, then that's what this is going to be, you know. Um, and whether or not we get to an ending or not, I think there's something to be said about the last chapter of a memoir too, because a lot of people get there and they're like, okay, I told the story of what happened and how even how I felt about it and what I did about it, right? And then what that caused in my life. And it's a sequential progressive journey that they've structured, and they get to that final chapter and they want to do an epilogue. And it's like the epilogue doesn't it reveals that they haven't actually fully integrated and embodied or accepted or owned their own story. They haven't actually applied the learning that they got from that book yet. They're trying to artificially stop the story. Yeah. And I want to say it's not so much a brave new ending, Brene Brown, that we're looking for. It's more of this acceptance that there is no ending, that it will continue, that we will never know. We're sort of concocting this um idea in a book and and artificially stopping it because you have to have it stop somewhere. But like it's gonna keep keep going. And if you've owned your story, well, it's gonna be it's gonna be clear in that last chapter. Own story meaning if you've owned it, meaning that you have come to um embrace the fact that you're not in control, yeah, that it's kind of gonna be in control of you from here on out. Yeah. And you can either embrace that and embrace what comes to you, or you can deny it.

David 35:14

And maybe for that last chapter of the supposed memoir, uh if we're talking about that, it's it's about relaying an experience where you at least finally learn something. You you you uh what am I trying to say? I'm trying to do that.

Mick 35:30

Yeah, like you take a new approach. Yeah. You say because this la this life was blown up, right, I can no longer try to claim that old life.

David 35:41

And here's a story about how that hap how I saw more of my life at the end at the end of the last chapter. Yes. Here's here's a story, like, oh, all of a sudden, all of a sudden I'm seeing things I didn't know were there. Right. I don't know what they are maybe, but here's what I'm now doing. It's kind of like an example of that.

Mick 36:01

But well, it it's it's a it's a existing archetype. I would point to like Joseph Campbell. But like for as an example, Wizard of Oz. When she gets at the when she's at the end and she ends up in, oh, it was all a dream, she ends up at home. Now you know this story will continue from that point on with the people on that farm that she knows because she's now grateful for them. She actually has changed toward them, right? Because she's dreamed about them.

David 36:24

Yeah. And all this love pours out from Dorothy at the end.

Mick 36:28

Yes, you feel it. There's there's something right there. Yeah, totally. It changes her completely. You know that she's owned her story and that returning home again for her meant to love where you are, bloom where you're planted. Right. Stop trying to escape your life.

David 36:43

Right.

Mick 36:44

Right? Which which makes that wonderful song of Over the Rainbow actually kind of sad. It's kind of like the tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow thing with uh Annie, right? Looking for always to tomorrow instead of being where you are, yeah, is gonna ultimately ruin you. Yeah. Um and I think that's what Brene's trying to get at when you've denied that story for so long. It's actually defining you and you don't even know it. Yeah, there's gonna be times where people see that. More spiritual people will see that about you and be like, I'm gonna avoid you because you're not healthy. And you need to accept it.

David 37:18

I do think I do think when when bigger feelings come out, I think that's one sign of a good ending for a book.

Mick 37:25

Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Like that love Dorothy Felt.

David 37:28

Yeah. I think that's I think that's something. Uh you know, there's um there's a book by the um sort of what's the right word for it, but the the former Catholic theologian turned Episcopal priest Matthew Fox, who's been writing books for years and years and years. Right. Pretty well known. Um and uh he has a book out about the Antichrist imagery, Antichrist imagery, and of course connects it to Trump. And uh reading the book for me was this was my experience of it. Sure. The author is talking about like some uh a fresco in an Italian church that depicts a scene of the Antichrist, and he goes into all the different components that are in there. Yeah. Um there's particularly the image of a devil whispering in the Antichrist's ear. Wow. Um and it was weird. That it was just this, it's just this very compelling, kind of creepy, sure unsettling a image. And he he he goes into some other images too. Yeah. Um, but that one struck me, and it was funny because as I was reading that, I saw one of Trump's images. First, there was that image that he had of where he's like healing somebody, and he looks like he's got like uh a stole a stole on, and he's like Jesus, and he's healing this person who looks like Jeffrey Epstein. What a weird image that was. That was so effed up. Like at so many levels, just like warplanes overhead and whatever else, you know, American flag in the background. But then so in the blowback of that, he released this image of Jesus whispering in his ear. And I was like, oh, that is such a that is such a that is such a reversal of the Antichrist. It's like it's like a denial of the thing. Yeah, it's like the same thing. You know, instead of the instead of him being the Antichrist and Devil whispering in his ear, oh no, he's this wonderful person, and Jesus is whispering in his ear. Oh my god. But it's like, but you know it's the opposite.

Mick 39:31

Oh no, Jesus is not whispering in his ear.

David 39:33

But what I got out of the experience of all that was like I approached that new image that Trump put out, and it was like, man, I really feel the evil here. Yeah. I really know it's palpable. Really, it's like a palpable, frightening evil. Yeah. And that taking that over. Um and I think that's if you can accomplish that in writing your book, even if it's not a memoir, even if it's like this book about comparing Trump and the Antichrist imagery, yeah. You know, you've accomplished you've definitely written about what you don't know, or you've you've gone into the story that you have that you have been uncomfortable with that you've had the things that the uncomfort that you need to accept.

Mick 40:16

Yeah.

David 40:16

That's what that book helped me with.

Mick 40:18

Yeah, it's identifying something that you had felt, right? It's putting words to something, it's giving it language and you're not aware.

David 40:25

I didn't know how. I mean, I am so creeped out by all this stuff, and I am. And maybe that's why. And it's like, oh yeah, look at this. It's just just the same stuff. And it's just like going on for hundreds of years. Exactly. Yeah.

Mick 40:39

Yeah, that's really good. It put to words something that you were feeling and helped you define this this creepy feeling. Right. This discomfort that you felt. And and without that book, maybe it wouldn't have had the same effect, or you wouldn't have identified maybe what that was that was creeping you out.

David 40:58

And I think even like an outcome of that is it just spurs me to more action. Right. Good. Because I'm feeling that I'm feeling more.

Mick 41:05

You want to do something.

David 41:06

Because so much of this onslaught with Trump is just like it's never in. Always trying to desensitize you. Yeah. And he's always taking like a step further and then he'll like move back two steps. Or no, he'll he'll go two steps forward, or maybe he goes like more like five steps forward and then he goes back a step. No, it's all okay. No, I'm not doing it. And then he does, and then now that you've gone four steps down the road, he'll go another five steps. Oh, I'll go back one step. Yeah. You know, and now you're like now we're like into like authoritarianism completely a totally corrupt political system.

Mick 41:34

And nobody seems to be able to do anything.

David 41:36

It's at some point along the way to being totally corrupt, without a doubt.

Mick 41:40

Yeah, yeah. And how do we go back?

David 41:41

And to have some and and you it just desensitizes your emotions. Totally does. And your worldview about it. Yeah.

Mick 41:48

Yeah, I've had to like pull back from a lot of news. I just I can't I can't retain the cortisol levels alone are evident.

David 41:56

But the interesting thing about this was that it wasn't a cortisol experience for me. It wasn't an anger experience, it was more a feeling experience, more like a like I care about life. Yes. And this is and this is just pure evil. Right. And and when you find when you face pure evil, you're not wanting to like lash out in anger necessarily. You're wanting to somehow steer it and get away from it and put it away. And yeah I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what I'm trying to say exactly. No, there's there's real evil out there. It's not the usual like rage. Yeah. When I s like this is this isn't just like because I think anger is about frustrating over something that's obvious. Like we don't we know like this is bad. Yes. Um and you feel that a lot. Yeah, you feel that a lot, but just to say, man, this is just so evil. Yeah. Yeah, and to acknowledge that as what it's like. It's like I want to get away from this. Like even maybe having a conversation with a family member, it's like, I don't want to talk about that. I don't, you know, this is just evil stuff.

Mick 43:01

Yeah.

David 43:02

I don't care what you say, it's evil. Feels feels threatening.

Mick 43:05

It feels awful. Yeah.

David 43:06

Like, how can how can we do this?

Mick 43:08

Feels upside down, like the opposite of the truth.

David 43:13

Think about what happened in Gaza. I mean, you know, we're so complicit in that. Yeah. Our leadership right now is so complicit. Our leadership was complicit, is complicit, ongoing. But I mean, yeah, Hamas did this terrible thing. Now I've gotten really heavy and deep and dark.

Mick 43:28

No, but it relates.

David 43:29

But um Hamas did this terrible thing when they came because the culture came over the over the border and killed all those people and took so many captive. Right. But then we went and killed 30,000, how many thousands and thousands of people and just destroyed the entire country? Completely. What the hell is that all about?

Mick 43:45

Over and over and over again. I mean, that's been going on. There's no there's years.

David 43:48

There's n and and where and where are they? Right. Have they solved the problem? Right.

Mick 43:52

Are we are we better off?

David 43:54

Yeah. And just being able to be in touch with those feelings is is I think something in Writing that we so desperately need. Right.

Mick 44:03

That that this has happened before. I think it back. No, you're you're explaining something because from that book, you are seeing something historical.

David 44:12

Yeah.

Mick 44:12

That had been identified and is still true in the world today. Right. And I think if you can do that, it helps orient you and gives you a context that's larger than just what you're struggling with right now.

David 44:25

The book's called Trump and the MAGA Movement as Antichrist. I should have I should have said that. Yeah. Yeah. My Matthew. By Matthew Fox. Right.

Mick 44:33

Right. Yeah. I mean, we've we've recommended a lot of books. Um, and you know, if you're just getting into this and you're just starting to own your own story and try and figure out what the hell we're talking about, uh my hat's off to you, first of all. Good job for sticking with us. I think we've we've we've gained some ground here. We're we're starting to, I suppose. Yeah. But I don't want to claim that ground. I want I want others uh who have experienced this. Yeah, exactly, or control it.

David 44:57

We've got the five steps.

Mick 44:59

Sorry, you're not getting that here.

David 45:01

For writing your own for owning your story.

Mick 45:03

But like, yeah, identifying a feeling, I think is something that you you just helped identify. Um something that you're feeling it, accepting it. Accepting that you're feeling it. Yeah. Yeah, that there's a discomfort there, that it's pointing you somewhere that you need to point, you need to recognize that stuff, yeah. Yeah. Even if it's just frustration and anger, I mean, that's a very familiar feeling to all of us. Yeah. That's pointing you to something. Right. Right. Your psychology training would say, like, there's there's a reason for that. And Anne Lamotte recommends as a writer, follow the tears. And I always tell this to to memoirists if you're gonna write something meaningful, you have to write what angers you or what makes you desperately sad. Why are there tears? Figure it out. If you can follow that, you'll have something of a story there. You didn't choose it, it's not something that you got to choose that you were like, Oh, I I'm gonna be sad about this today. No, it just happened. Yeah, and so you can choose to pay attention to that or not. Yeah, and paying attention, I guess, is is something that I continually come back to. Yeah, slowing down and to in order to pay attention.

David 46:10

What are we what are we not seeing that's all that's obviously there?

Mick 46:13

And then that's a practice, isn't it? It's like I mean, you could say it's a spiritual practice in many ways, to do that um that wards off evil in your life. Am I claiming the authority of scripture in my life? I wouldn't put that language on it, but right arguably that is the tradition that I'm still living in by doing this, by taking ownership of my emotions and how I live with it.

David 46:36

This is such a rich topic, honestly. I mean, it just goes on and on, I think.

Mick 46:39

Yeah, so maybe we'll just continually keep circling. Okay. Well, at the very least, thanks for being here in our spiritual but not religious uh podcast. Yeah.

David 46:51

Well, we're disrupting by trying to pay better attention.

Mick 46:55

Yeah, yeah. And and recent changes have sort of disrupted us, so we're just like, well, I guess let's pay attention to that.

David 47:02

Right.

Mick 47:02

Yeah, okay. Thanks for being here, everybody, and we'll catch you next time.