Can We Forget Platform, Please? Calling All Pathfinders and Waymakers, with Ivy Zeller

David and Mick are joined by fellow book editor and Hyponymous literary agent Ivy Zeller to discuss her refreshing response to the disrupted publishing landscape. 

What can we learn from zine culture? How specific can we get with audiences? How do representation and advocacy inform our publishing path? There was so much to discuss in this vibrant conversation! Please let us know how you responded to the topics and themes we covered.

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

David 0:00

Yeah.

Mick 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to Publishing Disrupted. Uh, I am Mick Silva.

David 0:06

And I'm David Morris.

Mick 0:07

And we are exploring the ways in which book publishing is changing and how authors can best meet that challenge. Uh I am an editor. Uh we're former uh publishing professionals. I suppose we're still publishing professionals, but we just say, you know, former formerly of the industry, uh, Christian industry, that would be. And you are a publisher and literary agent. Yep.

David 0:31

Yep.

Mick 0:32

And we have one of your co-literary agents today with hyponymus. We have Ivy Zeller with us today.

Ivy 0:39

Welcome. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

David 0:42

It's excellent. It's great. We can do it live and in person.

Mick 0:45

Absolutely.

David 0:48

Not over Zoom or anything like that. This is great. It is great. Yeah. Um, well, if if I may, I will introduce Ivy. Please. Um, and I have, you know, Ivy is actually a person who could probably write several different bios if if uh she wanted to. And um, this one is from our Hyponymus website because we're colleagues at Hyponymus Literary. And here it says Ivy is a she they is a publishing professional with nearly a decade of industry experience, longtime editor who's worked with multiple presses, and also the author of Disabled Witchcraft and Undead Faith. That's a great title. She is passionate about the intersections of spirituality, creativity, and justice, and is currently seeking nonfiction manuscripts as an agent with these themes. Um, practical, unique, and creative takes on spirituality outside the norm and after faith. Such awesome phrasings there and all that. I'm liking it. Um but this isn't your full-on day job either. No, I'm sure. Like a lot of us, we're doing different things that we've been disrupted in the in the publishing world. We professionally, we're doing different kinds of things, professionally and semi-personally or semi-professionally. And I also so also I would recommend if you go look up Ivy uh like on her um Instagram page and you'll go to the uh bio, which I had pulled up here before, and then now it's gone, of course. Okay, and then go to the link tree. Now there's a there's another adventure going on here. On the link tree, it says uh book me for an editing project. So you edit on the side. Uh there's the literary agent part. Uh book a I'm just gonna read these down. Sure. And then we can pick on which ones to ask her to explain. All the hats. You got a lot of explaining to do. Book a pitch witch session. Uh here's your editorial portfolio. There's the all the threads newsletter, which I highly recommend on Substack.

Mick 2:59

Substack, yep.

David 3:00

Uh your book again, Disabled Witchcraft, Undead Faith, which is more of a zine online other book recommendations in your Instagram. But but you spend most of your professional hours throughout the week working for Microcosm Publishing.

Ivy 3:16

I'm an editor for them and I also manage the zines.

David 3:19

Oh, so nice. Wow. Okay.

Ivy 3:22

And they're based out of Portland, Oregon, and Cleveland, Ohio, but I work remotely from Grand Rapids.

Mick 3:29

Oh, that's so cool.

David 3:30

I didn't realize they were also in Cleveland.

Ivy 3:31

Yeah, they have a warehouse there.

David 3:33

Oh, okay. Okay.

Mick 3:34

Yeah, I moved from Portland, Oregon, uh what, almost eight years ago now.

Ivy 3:38

Oh wow.

Mick 3:39

Uh we lived there for yeah, about eight years as well, um, after Colorado and Seattle before that. Um, but yeah, I've been all over and and publishing is all over. It's not just in a few locales, although still we call it Colorado Springs the Christian publishing Mecca. Uh but Nashville's given it a pretty good run these days too. There's a lot of publishing that happens outside of the um you know normal places. And I guess that's true of all media, it's sort of like dispersed now, right? Or disrupted. Uh but so many recent changes have disrupted, I mean, even when it with we're not just talking about industry, but like, you know, continue to s to disrupt book publishing. So zines, like that is that's actually a very viable uh place to have zines, zines?

Ivy 4:30

Um usually it's zines, but I have heard zines before. So yeah.

Mick 4:34

I'm old, so I just call it zines. Uh but yeah, that that is, that didn't used to be like when I was starting out in about 2000, uh, you know, you couldn't find them. There was maybe one or two. Um, particularly in sort of like the progressive space, like that was hard to find. Um, but I'm seeing it increasingly.

Ivy 4:53

Yeah.

Mick 4:54

And I mean you're you're part of this. This is very cool.

Ivy 4:57

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I got my start in Christian publishing.

Mick 5:01

Okay.

Ivy 5:02

And during that time I deconverted. And so that was a very interesting space to be in figuring out what my next role would be. I was a freelancer for a while exclusively. And then um, about two and a half years ago, I started working for Microcosm, which is a more secular press that specializes in DIY content, activism, that kind of thing.

David 5:24

Totally, yes. I mean, and you also have your book with Microcosm.

Ivy 5:27

I do, yes. Yeah. So my book came out in 2024, and I'm in the process of writing a couple more books. So very excited about that.

David 5:36

And what do they what what are they known for, Microcosm? They're a unique company, for one thing. They really are as a publisher.

Ivy 5:42

Yeah, they started as a um zine distro and record label in the 90s in the punk scene. And then so they still do a lot of books about um punk history and things like that, um, but they also do DIYs.

Mick 5:59

Wow.

Ivy 6:00

Um, they do basically everything DIY related. Um, my book is a witchcraft book, so they have some witchy stuff. Um and they really like unique and practical takes on things, and that's one reason I like working for them. It's a very accessible publisher. Um, and it really invites people into conversations about big topics without getting bloated with lots of big words.

Mick 6:24

Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. I'm on the website here and it's very punk.

David 6:28

And it is, isn't it? I mean, just look at that left nav.

Mick 6:31

Yeah.

David 6:31

It's very different. Um but also their model is different. Like I've heard it said, and I'm not sure this is totally true or if it's the right way to characterize it, but I've heard it said they don't even bother with Amazon or they don't need Amazon.

Ivy 6:45

They um typically don't work, we don't work directly with Amazon. Um some of the distributors that we work with do work with Amazon. So you might see. Yeah, so you might see some of those, but they don't work directly with Amazon. And they have sliding scale rates and things like that for um books, and it's a really cool book marketplace as well, because they distribute books that aren't just microcosm books.

David 7:08

Oh, okay. Sliding scale meaning for the consumer or for um for authors.

Ivy 7:14

That is on the side of the um warehouse, so I do not know that. Okay.

David 7:20

Yeah, but they're they're really good at direct to consumer. They've got big email lists.

Ivy 7:24

They do, they do, and they do a great job of just entering into conversations that need to be had. There's a lot of queer books too, which is just so good.

Mick 7:33

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I see a lot of like make your own sign here, um, publishing workbook for people, build your own book build business from the ground up. I mean, that appeals to me. That's the thing, yes. Yeah, that's the thing. Like getting into the indie sort of street cred crowd, which is very uh different from where you come from, right? The big, as we call it, the cruise ship of Christian um American publishing. Uh, you know, you gotta kind of find your way and you gotta become scrappy and and wear a lot of hats, as you as we've pointed out here. Like you you have to figure out the path. Yeah. And so, like, I think one of the benefits for us being able to have people, especially who can come in and talk to us about this, is like, I don't know, there's the validate there's the natural validation that happens because I had to figure out my own way, like um figure out how to get out of Christian publishing, but still stay, you know, somewhat amenable to projects, I suppose. Like sometimes, obviously, you're not just like completely straight arming everybody, although sometimes I feel like I want to. Um, but like you're you're trying to now come out of the big Christian publishing cruise ship as well, and and establish yourself. So, like we're trying to find like beyond our own personal validation, obviously. And validation's valid, like we need it, everyone needs it. Uh, but like to ask you how how has that been for you? Like trying to figure out your own path. I mean, did it start with trauma? Did it start with some difficulty that you were seeing you couldn't make it work here in Christian publishing?

Ivy 9:11

Or yeah, so to answer this question, we have to go a little further back into my background. I was raised in a very fundamentalist doomsday type cult environment.

Mick 9:25

Yeah.

Ivy 9:25

Um, I lived on a compound in the woods with my family.

David 9:28

Wow.

Ivy 9:29

And so kind of a wild way to start. Um Do they have a name or um so like the technical term for what my family believed would be, let me see if I can get all the right adjectives. Christian fundamentalist, predispensational, premillennial Baptists.

Mick 9:45

Yep. Oh, that's very clear. Yes. I know exactly what you're talking about now.

Ivy 9:49

Yeah, yeah.

Mick 9:50

And a lot of people who listen do.

Ivy 9:51

Yeah, that's very good.

David 9:52

But you have a less jargony way of talking about it, which you just offered as well.

Ivy 9:56

Yeah. Um, so I will, I'm an ex-vangelical, and I will often say that I deconverted from Christo fascism. Great. Because it was so directly tied into the politics of the right, and which is not, and as I grew in my faith um as an adult, I I was increasingly uncomfortable with my faith being tied to the end times and uh the right and fascism. And at the time, as I started asking those questions, I was working for a pretty conservative Christian publisher. And I was doing a lot of whimsical work for them. I was actually making zines for them, devotional zines. Okay. And I loved it, but I knew that my beliefs would not be welcome there. And um my body was starting to break under the pressure. I was getting migraines all the time. It wasn't good. And so that was also before I had come to terms with my queerness. I did not know that I was a lesbian yet. And so I was dealing with all of that all at once, and so I stepped away. I was really fortunate to be able to do that and to switch into freelance work. And I still had to take on a lot of projects back then that were a little too aligned with my upbringing, but that's how I started. And then I slowly began to write publicly about my experiences on all the threads, and then started to reach out to other publishers, including Lake Drive.

David 11:22

Um, that's how we first started getting to know each other because you had edited for us. I did, yeah.

Ivy 11:27

And I um was so impressed with the work Lake Drive was doing with basically deconstruction memoirs, deconversion memoirs, and just different stories about faith that were a little bit broader and kinder and more progressive. Um, and that was something that I wanted to participate in. And so I did that, and then eventually I got a job at Microcosm.

Mick 11:48

Okay, yep, yep. And and I mean, we're talking fairly recent, like within the last 10 years, yeah.

Ivy 11:53

Yeah, yeah. Um, I started working at Microcosm in December of 2023. Okay. I signed my book with them in July of 23.

David 12:01

Wow. Yeah, that is wow. I mean, that is amazing. Like you were prepared. Yeah. I mean, there's so many of us who have been in the Christian industrial complex and it's so big and it it has like gravity that pulls you in. Yeah. And it's kind of hard to go into orbit around it, you know. It's hard to break out of the orbit. That's right. Um, we were talking about the word tethered for a little earlier. It's good, yeah. Escape velocity. But you, yeah, you achieved escape velocity. And um, you know, because it's like religion isn't necessarily meant to be all-encompassing of everything you do, including your job.

Mick 12:38

Yeah.

David 12:39

And that's that's kind of what happens a little bit by default in when when we're trying to be publishing people, because it's either like you're in New York publishing or or a broader world of publishing, or you're in this giant Christian world. Yes. Yeah. Um, and it's kind of there's not a lot of like in between. So you kind of made it all the way out, but but not without some spirituality intact.

Ivy 13:04

That's correct. Yeah, yeah.

David 13:05

Yeah, because your book is about witchcraft. Um, your editing zines probably has something close connected to that.

Mick 13:12

Yeah.

David 13:12

Um, but it's also, I mean, there's also a certain spirituality about your business model that it's direct to consumer, it's more grassroots, it's more egalitarian, it's less hierarchical, yeah, it's less like about capitalism. Um that's just amazing that you made that that that happened. And I hope it's going well. It is. I hope after we said all that, it's not like quitting. Yeah.

Ivy 13:35

No, it's going really well. And you know, I can't speak for microcosm as a whole company, but um, I'm just an editor there, but I've they've treated me really well, and I'm really encouraged to see places like Microcosm and Lake Drive exist because I think those small indie pockets really make a big disruption positively in the industry. Um, because as you both know, there's so much consolidation with the big five, and it's nice to be working outside of the big five, and I would prefer to continue doing that.

Mick 14:08

Bingo. Yes. Plan accordingly, people. Think about it as an author. Like, if you're trying to think where do I belong, which which is better, self-publishing or traditional. This this has like I don't think there's a more important consideration. I I think ultimately, yes, it does come down to making your money back if you're gonna put the money up to publish, but like who are you going to partner with is a very important consideration. And I I just see a lot of people not even it's just like they just want to skip past that.

Ivy 14:41

Yeah, I think publishing a book is a dream for so many people. And I was absolutely um in that mindset and wanted to publish a book very badly. And the book that I published took me probably between 10 and 15 years to get published.

Mick 14:57

Yeah.

Ivy 14:58

Um and it it changed forms several times, especially since it was in the middle of a deconversion. Disabled Witchcraft started as a book about disability in the church. Um, and that didn't end up getting picked up because I didn't have enough platform, but Microcosm was open to talking about it with witchiness um without a platform. So that was pretty cool.

Mick 15:20

Yes, yeah. So, so explain to you know this Rube over here about witchcraft, because I I was raised not exactly like you, but a very fundamentalist. And that word, of course, right, was like, hey, you don't want you wanna touch it.

David 15:36

Yeah. It's like it's like when I mention Freud to people.

Mick 15:39

Right. Come on.

Ivy 15:41

It's all it's actually that's just the same thing. Yeah, there's a lot of cultural boogeyman, basically. And yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And I'm always fascinated by moral panics, and my my zine, Undead Faith, is about moral panics through the lens of monster myth. Um, but going back to the um let me circle back, ADHD, apologies.

Mick 16:05

We're all ADHD here today. Yeah, you're among friends.

Ivy 16:09

But we were talking about um what what rich what witchcraft is. And for me, my practice is pretty secular, and basically it's about infusing intention. Um, there's a lot of spiritual autonomy in that path and a lot of connection to nature. And witchcraft is a big tent. There is a lot of different stuff, just like Christianity. Um, and so witchcraft for me is a little more spiritual practice than religion.

Mick 16:36

Yep.

Ivy 16:36

Um, but sometimes I will describe it as spicy placebo. Um it's a lot of ritual. Um, and a lot of us are just starved for ritual, especially when we grew up in church. Right. And yeah, so that's that's what witchcraft is to me.

Mick 16:50

Yeah. And I mean, to just I can hear all of the like arguments, and both of our moms listen to this podcast. But like, you know, we go, okay, is there is there uh room for exploration, right, within your particular chosen flavor of spiritual practice? Uh room for experimentation, room for like figuring out your own path, I guess, right? Yeah. Like that's what I found that was missing a lot when it was being prescribed to me in the church. And what I appreciate now is when someone like you comes along and and isn't afraid, or maybe even uses some of the phrases that were cultural boogeyman in order to sort of break down some of the barriers or or even just indicate to people like this is different, right? We're we're exploratory, we're open-ended, we're we're not looking for necessarily answers so much as like other questions that we could ask.

Ivy 17:48

That's the thing, it's about questions. And I will say, unfortunately, because I asked those questions, I did lose a lot of contacts in the industry.

Mick 17:55

You're gonna, yeah.

Ivy 17:56

Um but it was something I needed to do to be my authentic self, and I wanted to write in a way that was inclusive of all paths, and so that was the route I picked, and I wouldn't change it. I, you know, wish obviously that those conversations could have been left open with some of those uh contacts I lost. Um, but yeah, sometimes those boogeymen are a little bit too scary.

Mick 18:21

Yes, right. Yeah, yeah, and and maybe you're selective in which ones you want to take on certain people. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's so interesting. I feel like I could talk about this like a long time.

David 18:33

Yeah. What what is so let's let's shift gears back to our our podcast theme, but we always want to hear your interpretation of it, yeah, your version of it. Um the the theme of disruption. So we've heard a little bit about your disruption. Um it was professional, personal or professional spiritual. Um and uh how do you see the the world, the industry being disrupted today? We talked we we touched a little bit on that when we're talking about microcosm. Um and what do you think is going on with with publishing?

Ivy 19:06

What do you think the the problem is or the big changes or I think our big problem is consolidation, but I think the response to it has been all of this wonderful flourishing of indie stuff. And these um one reason I like microcosm's model is it's in the name, it's a microcosm, it's small. Right, and finding those communities, those small niche communities, and maybe worrying less about huge platform numbers and more worrying about can this person authentically step into writing a book on the subject that is going to help readers. Right. Um, so that's kind of what I'm seeing and um what the changes I'm rooting for. So less consolidation, more flourishing of authors that are really competent and really ready to talk on subjects that are of interest to the readers and that will help people.

David 19:58

Nerds, not celebrities. Yes. Yeah, so consolidation, explain what you mean by what is meant by call consolidation.

Ivy 20:04

Uh because we have the big five in publishing, and that it's not just that, oh, there's these five big companies, it's that they is that the big five keeps buying up small imprints in indie presses.

David 20:16

And that especially if there's any mid-level ones. Exactly. There aren't very many left.

Ivy 20:20

The mid-level is not a thing as much anymore. And um and it's I I that does concern me. And so I'm always going to be rooting for disruptions of that trend because monopolies or anything close to them are not good for readers, they're not good for consumers, they're not good for writers. Right. That's just just not great for anybody.

Mick 20:43

I agree. I think we've we've talked about you know the celebrity book trend, we've we've talked about consolidation a lot. I think these are the sort of big machinations of the industry that's and those things, those two things kind of go together. They do. I mean, obviously, that's you're looking for the biggest numbers possible. We've we've had people in publishing.

David 21:01

Scale, economies of scale.

Mick 21:02

Yeah, they only want to publish the biggest books. Right. And and they'll uh you know, excuse that because they have big revenue goals, and you know, this this is the lingo. Um, you know, we we have to do right by our our basically our bottom line um shareholders, right?

David 21:19

There's a little bit of room left over for acquiring things of great merit, and hopefully they'll go viral, but they often don't. Yeah, and that's the thing. Some do. That's and there's examples, but often they don't.

Mick 21:29

Increasingly it's just lip service to say, you know, we're gonna give you and I I was told this from the very beginning. I mean, this is way back in you know 2000 and and even before then, people were using that line. Not just that someone's gonna do it if we don't, and then secondly, you know, we'll give you uh, you know, one book out of ten that can be a heart project or you know, somebody who's not known and we let you, you know, prove to us that they're a good author if they s if they can sell. And of course, it was always on them to make sure they were selling the book and like. Big publishers are doing this. Right. Yeah. And selling that line endlessly to to you know un unbeknownst to them authors who are they're cash cows, basically. Yeah. And they can continue to do it because they're big and they have the the clout and supposedly the credibility to do it. But independent stuff does not have that going for it. They always have to prove themselves. There's always this, like, you know, it's especially with authors, you're not given a whole lot of money up front. You're not told that you're gonna be great and amazing and that they're gonna take care of all the mark marketing, and like you're not given that cruise ship sort of appeal.

Ivy 22:39

No, and I think that's something when people come to me with books, I do these things called pitchwitch sessions.

David 22:45

Yes, we did want to ask about that.

Ivy 22:48

Um basically another more jargony way to call them um is publishing resourcing conversations.

Mick 22:54

Oh, that's good.

Ivy 22:55

Um basically what I do is I sit down with somebody who has a book idea and I talk to them about what their options are in the industry, and then I look at the manuscript a little bit and talk about what might be some really good specific options. One of the things I do talk about is zines because sometimes you'll get a lovely project that I know is not going to get picked up, and then it's just like, hey, if you want to start a little audience for this, make a zine and plug into your local zine community, and I bet you you can get some higher numbers.

David 23:24

Yep. Um What is a zine community? What do you mean a local where do you find a local zine community?

Ivy 23:29

Um so most major cities have zine fests, which are usually annual events where zine sters get together and there's a big trading uh culture in zine in the zine world where it's like comic cons.

Mick 23:43

Yeah, exactly.

Ivy 23:44

So I'll give you my zine, you give me your zine. Like a printed. Yeah, exactly. Um because historically zines were printed, and now we're starting to see more digital zines, um, which is mostly what at Microcosm I work with the physical zines. Outside of microcosm, I work with um the digital zines. Nice, okay.

David 24:02

Yeah, that's cool. What and what what is what's going on in zine culture? Like what's the big stuff? Or or what's the what is the the spectrum?

Ivy 24:11

Zines are an incredible range of heart projects, like you talked about, but sometimes they have very helpful information. So sometimes you'll see something where someone will identify all the leaves in a local, in a hyper-local area, and they will draw them out, and they have made all these hand-drawn zines of that. So you have that on one side of the spectrum, and then you have uh zines that get produced by like the Pride Center or something like that, with about important queer sex education information. So zines, and then you have cool, funny, off-the-wall comics. That is zine culture includes all of that. And I think um, because the cost of entry is so low, it's a great first option for authors who don't have a big budget.

David 24:56

Cost being you print this. You print this. You can have a design.

Ivy 25:00

Yeah. You can um programs like Canva and stuff like that are starting to get good enough where you can design it, you can format your own.

David 25:10

Yeah, they have templates for the template. The zine templates.

Ivy 25:13

Templates and you can also um you can also like Microsoft Word has zine templates too. Oh also Man, we are old.

Mick 25:24

That's a starter, that's a starter set. But yes.

Ivy 25:27

Um, and basically the other thing you can do too is you can fold the paper yourself and handwrite it. That's the history of zine.

Mick 25:35

That's so fun.

Ivy 25:35

And you can print it at the library. I have printed my zines at the library we are sitting at.

Mick 25:40

That's awesome. I think of like Far Farmer's Almanac and how popular that was, right? And like Garrison Keeler. And like from those days, this is nothing new.

Ivy 25:48

Right.

Mick 25:49

But it's it's alternative.

David 25:51

So this gets back to the to the like the disruption that's going on. And they're like one of the things I say to authors is with the digital revolution, it's made it's made us more segmented, and we're more about vertical audiences than horizontal ones. I liked how you use the word local audience, yes, too, particularly with zines. And I think that's that's both at Lake Drive and Hyponymus. I work in the words like it's really about finding your particularity. That's where the authenticity is, and and the yeah, that's and that's where even sort of like the cool material is to write about. Instead of trying to be the next big Christian influencer and competing with all the other people who are saying the same things, and boy, did we publish a lot of the same things. It was a it was a struggle sometimes to make books sound different from each other. That was the thing, man.

Mick 26:39

Yeah, so many people just because everything is like a Xerox copy of like something from and then it chews them up, and you're like, you didn't have to do that, like you know, a lot of money and chews them up and well it's because they're told like that's what you have to do to compete. Yeah, and and you see them coming in with wide eyes, and you're like, ah, you're gonna get the hooks in you, and it it's not gonna go well. Yeah, and then you're not gonna sell. And I I know so many people who have and and not to say that's only in traditional publishing, but like so many people who have tried to become that, you know, coveted mid-list author, it just didn't work out for one reason or another. And then they go and try to self-publish and they realize like, well, well, they should have been doing that the whole time. Like they wasted so much time.

Ivy 27:21

Uh yeah. And that's why I do those publishing resourcing conversations, because people usually come to me and say, Hey, can you edit my book? And editing for it to be viable for me is pretty cost prohibitive for a lot of authors. And I don't want to just edit their book and leave them with less money than they started. Right. So I'm like, we're gonna know where to push or a publishing resourcing conversation, depending on who I'm talking to. Um, and see where they want to go. And once they decide where they want to go, I let them know if I have any editing services that could be of help along that journey. Because again, I'm I'm team author. I don't want, I don't want people to be spending money that they don't have to produce books that they want to produce.

Mick 28:01

That's right. Yeah, and you have to broaden that conversation. Yeah. Take people back a couple of steps. Yeah. That's what I do too.

David 28:07

So, what about um your own experience as an author? Yeah. You know, being local and being more authentic and being more connected to an audience that what has been your experience? Like have you had readers reach out to you? Have you have you experienced more different kinds of community that you didn't know that was there?

Ivy 28:26

I so my book, Disabled Witchcraft, is about witchy things, but specifically through a disabled lens. And there wasn't anything at the time like that. Um, and I wanted to start the conversation.

David 28:40

Give an example?

Ivy 28:41

Yeah. Um, so disability requires a lot of accommodations. And when I wrote the book, my allergies were not in remission, and I couldn't go to witchy shops because the incense would give me a migraine.

Mick 28:52

Oh, sure. Oh man.

Ivy 28:53

Um, and so that was one of the things I talked about in the book about how can we make our spaces, our circles, even more inclusive to other practitioners. Um, and also another big part of the book is financial accessibility. Um, how can we not spend so witchcraft, just like any spiritual path, has a capitalist arm where it's like, well, if you buy all these pretty crystals, if you buy all these books, that's going to be make you a good witch. And it's like, no, you can just use what you have and you can still practice. Like spiritual practice should not have a cost of entry.

David 29:29

It's not just an arm, it's like more like a dimension. Capitalism is like it it kind of penetrates and how do you it's like if an arm you can cut off, but a dimension is like takes over the entire body.

Mick 29:41

Yes.

Ivy 29:41

Yeah, yeah.

David 29:42

Yes. That's good. So so your experience in getting this book out there like that, how is that how's that been for you?

Ivy 29:49

It's been really good. Um, the response has been excellent. Um, I sold through my first print run. And um one of my most favorite moments was I had Googled my book just because I was curious, and it had it had been out for a while. And I found this little Reddit thread, and it was a bunch of people talking about my book. Sweet. They were just like, this was the book that we've always wanted and always needed. And so that was really I that was the that was the sweetest of the people you don't even know.

Mick 30:18

Exactly. So awesome.

Ivy 30:19

It was it really did my heart good. And something that I tell authors at the beginning of their journeys is that when with conversations and books, you are entering a conversation. You're not going to have a completely original idea, but what you can have is your own lived experience and bring that to bear. Right. And that's how you enter the conversation.

Mick 30:38

And it's not comprehensive, it doesn't need to be. That's not the point. Yeah.

Ivy 30:42

A lot of people want to be comprehensive, and that that's a that's a good way to describe it. Yeah. You don't need to be just be yourself.

Mick 30:48

Yeah. Yeah. Recognize that there's going to be resistance and maybe try to hear some of those arguments and questions up front, right? So you can address them in your book. That's really powerful. And I mean, that's an editing task, right? That's what you do in the editing role. But like recognizing that there's going to be resistance and then taking it on effectively. Like that, I mean, that's good communication, right?

Ivy 31:12

Exactly.

Mick 31:13

It's just a very basic, uh, you know, give and take kind of relationship that you're trying to create with people, with with your readers on the page. Like, and that's a journey. Um, personally, that's been a journey for I mean all of us, but like professionally, how to now effectively do that on the page in a book for people who are interested in that topic, how to find those people, how to connect with them. There's existing structures of communities, local communities, online communities that you can tap into to share your message with, and you just have to be open to finding them.

Ivy 31:46

Exactly.

Mick 31:47

Yeah. Sorry, I got on a soapbox there. That was a good soapbox. This exists, people, and it's valuable and it's it's um a viable option. And I just love the fact that you're you're kind of a representative, like a witness to what's actually happening in the larger world.

Ivy 32:04

Yeah, right. It's been an honor to be a part of it.

David 32:06

Like at the at the ground level, kind of too. I like what you said, like the entry level, the cost entry level for zines could be pretty low. I'd like to actually also talk about your Substack.

Ivy 32:17

Yeah.

David 32:17

That's a low cost entry. Do you do you charge for optionally charge for So I optionally charge?

Ivy 32:23

And if you are, and this is new, if you're a paid subscriber, um, you get uh a zine every month or or something like that, where I'll I will make something digital extra. Um but yeah, so that's kind of what we do. But um on the free side, about every week I do a random spiritual practice, which is usually whatever my ADHD is hyperfixated on. Um and then um and I just sort of info dump about that and then tie it back to spirituality and then encourage discussion in the comments when that happens. And yeah.

David 32:57

They're not long pieces.

Ivy 32:59

Nope, they're little, they're little little rituals.

David 33:02

Yeah, yeah. And and I've talked to I've talked to Ivy about can you turn those into long pieces? Like, well, everything's spiritual. Yeah, we're talking about like uh everything. How would we say like uh disabled, witchy, uh devotional?

Ivy 33:16

Yeah, yeah.

David 33:17

I see, I would love to use witch and devotional in the same way.

Ivy 33:20

I would argue you can.

David 33:22

So let's try.

Ivy 33:23

I I have to stops.

Mick 33:26

No one's stopping us.

Ivy 33:28

I um kind of humorously. So my first job in Christian publishing was devotional zines, and they were 90-day zines. Oh, sure. Yeah. My first book was a 90-day witchcraft thing. It was it's yeah, so I I'm a devotional writer. I'm just not Christian.

David 33:46

That doesn't stop, right? That doesn't stop. So I just want to read for everybody some of the titles of Ivy's Substack. You said the the spiritual practice ones are more on the side, right? Yeah. More what what comes to mind.

Mick 33:58

Yeah.

David 33:58

But you don't you don't stop. You put it on there. When you've got something, you're like, oh, let me lie, let me note that one down. So secular-ish prayer as a spiritual practice. Uh remembering as a spiritual practice, resistance as a spiritual practice. This is amazing. Words as a spiritual practice, archetypes as a spiritual practice. Tell me about hyperfixation too. It's been going on a long time.

Mick 34:22

Yeah, and I don't mean to derail the conversation, I mean to like expand it. But like the hyperfixations that you were not able to like explore, I guess, yeah, in the actual devotional market, right? You have to talk about Jesus, you have to talk about the I don't know what, four spiritual laws or something. Yeah. Like this is this is outside the box. This is taking, let's say, taking the baby out of the church walls, right? And saying, like, there is what Richard Rohr calls Christ consciousness, universal Christ consciousness in all things. Like, can we explore this at all? Yeah. But people are scared of that.

David 34:58

Botanical encyclopedias is a spiritual practice. I think you picked one up, didn't you? I did.

Mick 35:02

I'm sitting in the library and I thought I saw one. Yes. Um but your hyperfixation is calling you and you decided to listen to it.

David 35:10

Die as a spiritual practice. We're doing answer and call here. Yeah, that's true. I feel like I want to have her to explain this too. As in colored dyes. Yes. As a spiritual practice. Not die as a spiritual practice.

Mick 35:22

Colored dyes. Oh, right.

Ivy 35:24

Like um dying fabrics or something. One of my one of my hobbies is I take natural um materials and I dye various pieces of clothing and such. And that's something I do. I wish I could do it more. It usually happens about once a year.

David 35:38

Yeah. It's a process.

Ivy 35:40

Yeah.

David 35:40

Yeah. You're also good with um, how am I gonna say this? Like some of your Instagram posts, you're made up. How would you characterize it?

Ivy 35:48

Yeah, so my so my brand is spirituality, creativity, and justice. And that includes um what I wear and a lot of whimsy in like the like makeup looks. And that actually ties back to witchcraft because you uh there's this uh type of magic called glamour magic or clothing magic or color magic, and basically it's infusing intention with what you're doing. So if I'm wearing something on my Instagram, there is absolutely 100% intention behind it. Every piece that it shows up. I I love thrifting and finding weird stuff.

David 36:22

Totally.

Ivy 36:23

Yeah.

David 36:23

When are you gonna throw a party at your house and invite us over?

Mick 36:26

That's amazing.

David 36:27

I live in the house. I'll do cosplay.

Mick 36:29

I lived in wet West Hollywood for a long time. And so like the guys would come in, I worked at a bar, I was a bartender, and they would come in in half drag basically, because they had already been performing like most of the evening, and they'd come in, I had the day shift, and you know, still makeup and stuff, but they'd have the wig off and they'd they'd ask me why I was not gay, and I'd say, I don't know. I don't know why you do you tell me, like they were convinced I was. But like, you know, it was always this thing that that like there's these two worlds that exist, right? Yeah. Simultaneously, that's and and don't understand each other. But that was my first introduction to like you can get get this life experience from cosplay or like just being someone else for a while. Like you can learn about who you actually are, your own identity from being someone else, or like role-playing, I guess.

Ivy 37:15

Yeah, oh absolutely.

Mick 37:17

Yeah.

Ivy 37:17

I have a post coming out um in a couple of weeks about DD, so TTRPG role-playing games, and how they can be a spiritual practice because I know this is what will probably come as a shock, but um this was my I am actually right now in my first DD campaign ever.

Mick 37:33

Nice.

Ivy 37:34

It was super forbidden when I was up. But yeah, but now I am in a group um with a very diverse it's a diverse group of people, and I love that. Um, and so we're doing a DD campaign um in a fantasy world, and I am playing Lark Rose Branch, an elf druid.

Mick 37:51

Oh come on, that's gotta be fun. Is that something you picked? That is.

Ivy 37:56

Yeah, yeah.

Mick 37:57

So you have a campaign person. Yes.

Ivy 38:00

So I have the DM. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Mick 38:02

You devise that name too?

Ivy 38:03

Yeah.

Mick 38:04

Yeah.

Ivy 38:04

Yeah.

Mick 38:05

That's awesome.

Ivy 38:06

My next book is about names. That would be so fun.

Mick 38:08

Your next book is about names?

Ivy 38:10

About names, yeah.

Mick 38:11

Like choosing names.

Ivy 38:12

Yes, about choosing my names. So Ivy is a chosen name for me. Okay.

Mick 38:15

Yep.

Ivy 38:16

Um, and I specifically it's looking at nature names. So I have been diving into all kinds of botanical encyclopedias and astronomy encyclopedias. And I got a bunch of bird ones today.

Mick 38:27

Nice. Wow. I love this because I I worked on a book um that was talking about how God names us. Like this is a trope in in evangelical culture that uh God names us and gives us a bunch of names, and we give God a bunch of names, and and there have been whole books written about this. But to give yourself your own name, now you're getting into something that would be relegated to the dark side, right? Because you're choosing either against God or not consulting him.

Ivy 38:54

Yeah.

Mick 38:54

So, like choosing your own name, I think, is a very interesting concept.

Ivy 38:59

And uh in the book, I'm including a ritual about changing your name because I think that spirituality can be a part of that. And I think there is a false dichotomy around choosing your own name versus God, whereas I think they can come together.

Mick 39:14

Absolutely.

Ivy 39:15

And yeah, I I'm excited to uh share more about that as I have more updates. That's very cool.

Mick 39:20

I'll want to read that. Wow, I need to do some research on you when I go home because there's a lot of stuff that I I missed. I kind of scratched the surface, of course, because you know, we try to make sure our guests feel welcome. But like you have so much to get interested in that I like didn't know where to look. There's just all these places. And I love that David found you, or you found David, and like you guys get to work together. And so, yeah, I'm hopeful we can continue our relationship.

David 39:47

I have one more question, and um, you've kind of answered the third part of our podcast format already. Like, what are the what's the disrupting you're doing? It I think it's just been evident since the very beginning of this chat. Um, but where what how would you like to grow professionally?

Ivy 40:03

Yeah, I am loving being a literary agent. That's a newer development, and that's something I had wanted to do for most of my career. Um, I also just really love creating books and developing books. And so basically the um the area I want to be more in is that is that like development and acquisition side. And um because I love helping people figure out where their books can land and being a literary agent is a really great way to do that.

David 40:36

And so when you say development part, oh yes, you mean you mean helping an author who's trying to get a book deal develop their book.

Ivy 40:44

Exactly. Or and at work, that means books. I develop books in-house as well. So um I will get assigned books and um I get to develop some really cool ones. One that I helped develop just recently went to print. It's called Indigenous Punk. And it covers it's an it's an encyclopedic resource of all kinds of indigenous punk bands.

David 41:04

Wow. Yeah. That's so cool. Okay, wait a minute. I don't even know. I'm gonna have to re-listen. I'm gonna listen to this whole podcast.

Mick 41:12

That's just that's created a new category in my brain. I don't even know where to start with that. That's awesome.

Ivy 41:18

I call my newsletter All the Threads because there's a lot of threads in my life. It's like a variegated ball of yarn.

David 41:26

So then the new you have a new book in the works, right?

Ivy 41:28

Yep.

David 41:29

And then what do you do is that have an on-sale date, a release date?

Ivy 41:31

Um not yet.

David 41:32

Okay.

Ivy 41:33

Um, but once I have that, I will definitely let you both know.

David 41:36

What can you say about it?

Ivy 41:38

Um mostly what I've said. It's a book about um nature names. And then I'm also working. Oh yeah, oh you're good. Um, and it's um I'm also working on a book about witchcraft and being genderqueer. Um two at the same time. Right.

David 41:53

And the best place for people to find you?

Ivy 41:56

Um, so my Linktree has most of the links. So linktree.com slash ivyzeller, and then on Instagram, I'm ivy.nix nyx dot zellerz-e-l-l-e-r.

Mick 42:07

Nice. And then they can find you there.

Ivy 42:09

They can.

Mick 42:10

Man, there's so much more we could talk about. I feel like this should be a two-parter. Like, will you come back?

Ivy 42:15

Absolutely.

Mick 42:16

This was so fun.

David 42:17

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Ivy 42:19

Thank you for having me.

Mick 42:20

Yeah, yeah. And and people listening, like, I I know there's a lot here to digest, and and certainly we're busy people, but I I was just reminded recently, and I think David, you sort of touched on this too earlier when we were talking, like there's just a lot that you have to unplug from in order to like plug into the stuff that you are choosing that you want to explore. And if you're hearing that voice in your head that's like, I don't know, I it's interesting, but I I'm not sure about it. Well, just follow it, like you're doing with names, like follow that that hyperfixation, right? Maybe it's not hyper for you. Maybe you're you're neurotypical and you just feel a curiosity. Follow that curiosity. Look, look this up. This this person's very interesting, she's got a lot of ideas, and there's there's things that we could like, I don't know, even if it's just constructive like disagreement or disrupting you in some way, like you're just acknowledging this and following it. I mean, just be humble with that, right? Yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying.

David 43:18

And unplug unplug, but you're not leaving community necessarily. You're you're trying to go find more uh I don't want to use like some I don't want to use the typical overused words, but jargon. Yeah. You're trying to find I mean, there's other kinds of community to be had out there, yeah. In terms of size and structure and color, and and we've we've all lived in a world, we're all plugged into a world that get to know something different. Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 43:45

It makes life bigger and longer and and fuller and richer, like all the descriptions that you've given us. I mean, you've given so much word and and language to things that I've I've felt, and I still struggle to kind of untether from my Old language and just be able to describe, you know. So I think you're coming from a very um enlightened place and you have a lot to teach. So it's very cool.

Ivy 44:10

Uh cheers to liberation all around.

Mick 44:13

Here, here, yes. And I mean you're just personally interesting too. So please do come back.

Ivy 44:18

We'll do.

Mick 44:18

All right, everybody, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for being here. Thank you.