Embracing New Cultures, New Languages, & the New Ember Conference

Extending our theme of how to find new gatherings and community (when the old ones are no longer serving), Publisher David shares his recent experiences with a local German club, and at the progressive-Christian Ember Conference in Oakland, CA. 

If you're looking to connect with more diverse people, learn new things you never knew, or just seeking new ways to experience a wider world, this is a great conversation. Books and book people are, of course, fascinating and full of exciting, deep ideas. And we want to highlight the opportunities in local communities--especially at the new recent Ember Conference in Oakland, California--to invest in more welcoming and authentic relationships. 

If you're a reader, a writer, or just interested in a more "egalitarian" way to produce books, we hope you'll come along.

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

Mick 0:00

Hey everybody. Uh welcome back to Publishing Disrupted. I am Mick Silva. And I'm David Morris, literary agent and book publisher.

David 0:10

And who are you?

Mick 0:12

I'm Mick Silva, an editor. Okay. Former acquisitions editor, now a uh freelance uh developmental editor and book coach. And yes, we talk about the disruptions in publishing in our lives and in the industry as a whole. And that has disrupted a lot of people. So we find all manner of things to talk about on this podcast. If you're interested in publishing, if you're a uh an author or a wannabe author, um, hopefully you'll find some some good material here. We wanted to talk this time. I do want to ask you a little bit of a catch up because it's always a couple weeks before we we meet again, but um wanted to talk about uh writers' conferences and you know the the I'm particularly in the sort of progressive emerging space, I guess, because that's where we hang out. Um and and yet I I think there's just a lot to talk about there, so maybe we can kind of um pinpoint how it helps writers, how you think it may may be useful. You just went to one, so I think this is a good opportunity to to talk about them in general. But then um how are you? I mean, what's what's new in your life? Yeah. You were telling me a little bit beforehand about a German club you went to. That sounds fun.

David 1:31

Yeah, yeah. I've been I've been just nurturing a hobby slowly of learning another language, and um it's great. It takes me out of my reality. And uh, you know, I've been I use apps, I've read books, I've watched YouTube videos, I've gone overseas, um, and I'm trying to learn German. And uh I still I can't I can't do it fluently at all, not at all, but I can't have conversations really just yet. But I can follow more than I ever used to be able to follow. Right. Um, I'm I'm catching on better. And like when we when my wife and I traveled to Austria last summer, yeah, I was surprised at how much I was able to read and and interpret things for for us as we were trying to navigate tourists. So you're picking it up, yeah. Yeah. Um and so but last night I've always been trying to get up my courage to go once a month here in Grand Rapids at a particular uh German brew house, yeah, um brewery. Um they have uh they have gatherings, and once a month, what one of the gatherings is just an informal group of people coming to um coming to talk just talk in German with each other. And um I I just was there. I said, I'm the new, you know, our new people welcome. I walked in and they welcomed me. And uh there were people there from Germany, there were people there who have lived in Germany, there are people there with relatives in Germany, yeah. And all kinds all either wanting to speak the language, learn the language, okay uh be be nostalgic about um it's a great way to do it, Germany. Yeah, yeah.

Mick 3:07

Because you're gonna have all all different levels, I'd imagine. And then you can definitely pick things up better when you're hearing it spoken.

David 3:14

Yep.

Mick 3:14

Yeah.

David 3:15

There was uh there was like there was even a song that they sang at one point. Someone just like burst into a song and they all sang it. Had it seems very true. I didn't even know what they were singing, honestly. That was a total new thing for me.

Mick 3:26

Yeah.

David 3:26

And then um I ended up uh sitting next to someone who was who wanted to who who wasn't as proficient either. She was far more proficient than me, but um she was willing to talk English and we actually had a chat. I found out she goes to a very well-known progressive post-evangelical type church in the world. No, Grand Rapids. That exists? Yeah, yeah, we can get into it later.

Mick 3:49

I don't want to name names and get into those. Must be downtown. Yeah, I I think yeah, that sounds really fun. And my girls are at GBSU, they're learning languages, uh, Japanese and Spanish, respectively. And I I took a bit of Spanish in high school, but you know, hearing Charlotte talk about in Spanish, um, her learning like brings it all back. And that's just a really it's a nice thing. I I mean, obviously as language nerds, um, we we just gravitate toward that. Yeah, I think it's it's really fun to figure out word derivations and different meanings in different cultures.

David 4:22

Yep. So it also kind of connects you to something that maybe even is part of your background or your roots. Yeah. Uh for you, right? Isn't there some Spanish in your Portuguese?

Mick 4:34

Uh apparently there's some French in there. I'm American mutt, so I'm sure there's some German at some point.

David 4:39

As so many of us, including me, yeah. Yeah. I have some Swiss in my background. I know I have some German.

Mick 4:46

Yeah.

David 4:46

Um, some Swiss is actually the most direct line for me from literally the Swiss Alps.

Mick 4:52

Yeah.

David 4:53

I had Catholic ancestors who went to Arkansas. I mean, there's a lot of German there too. Exactly. They actually have three languages in Switzerland, believe it or not. There's Germany, there's German, there's French, and there's Romanish. Romanish. Yeah.

Mick 5:05

See, this is not something that I would ever know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

David 5:09

But it's like very common knowledge, and we Americans are so like, you know, oh god. We're in our own little bubble. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 5:17

So that's fun. I mean, and you don't even have to go very far to no and there was beer involved. Very different culture. For better or for worse. If if it 'cause it's gonna be a German event, I would expect beer. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I love going to um, you know, any kind of in any place, especially if there's yeah, obviously uh libations help, but but food can be a good draw to uh just people having fun, enjoying culture in general, but then like deepening your appreciation, right? And traditions and heritage and things like this.

David 5:51

And and taxing your brain to try to understand a new language.

Mick 5:55

Yeah, I I would imagine. I mean, you did that after having come off of the Ember conference.

David 6:02

Yeah. And you had traveled for that one as well. I mean, I if if anybody wanted to try to create situations of social anxiety, I I did that for myself in the last four or five days. I mean, I still haven't recovered from the pandemic five years ago. Oh my god. Or is it six now? Seriously. And um I'm almost like, can we go back to COVID for a little while? Travel as much. And then working from home, it's like being it's like I I've said this before, but it's it's like the first day of kindergarten every time I go out these days. Right.

Mick 6:33

I know. It's like you forget when you've been at home for a few days. Yeah. You forget how to interact. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, you have to re-emerge. And yeah, that was interesting. I read an article, Michael Poland must be talking about a book recently because he was interviewed and he was talking about Germanic languages, but also like the difference between Anglo-Saxon and uh Latinate or original roots, right? So, and he's talking in context of uh Thoreau. I think this was a uh interview in PW I read I read, where he's talking about his influence, um Thoreau, and then looking at the differences in his sentences and his his um or original languages. He was using many more Anglo-Saxon words than Latin words.

David 7:20

Yeah.

Mick 7:21

And the way Michael Pollan uh sort of characterizes this is Anglo-Saxon words are much more concrete and um nature specific, right? Some of the words that we have that were derived from Anglo-Saxon, but then Latin words are much more uh sort of conceptual and bureaucratic, and talking about, you know, governments and and bureaucracies basically. I believe it. So he would avoid those those words more often. And so he says, uh Michael Pullman says his his sentences, Thoreau's sentences are much more influenced by Anglo-Saxon, and that's why they're more beautiful ultimately. Yeah. Because they're they're concrete and nature driven. And and I I find that so fascinating because I never I had no idea that there was a difference there. I didn't study languages or you know, I mean we talked about literature, but not that.

David 8:13

And I think it's a I think it's evidence that you know, even beauty and culture, things that we sort of hold as certain having certain essences are extremely socially determined. Right. You know, and that's not a bad thing. Right. That's but you know, if you look at all the how ways that we are socially constructed, it's it's it's a thing of beauty, actually. Yeah. And it's it's not a question of like and I'm I don't know. You know, I just think that's you know, when when we're in the progressive religious space we try to inhabit, uh I think that is a lesson that never runs out of of lessons, you know, how socially constructed everything we do is. Right. And that's just fascinating to think that there are, you know, that languages have different sort of um, you know, almost flavors.

Mick 9:09

Right. Right. Because like how do you even characterize that? I had never heard that characterized, the distinction between Latinate root etymology and Anglo-Saxon words. And yet you know that it exists. I mean, he he uses a couple of great examples. I mean I'll put the the sh in the show notes the interview.

David 9:29

Why do they sound the way that they do? Exactly.

Mick 9:32

Like how you how you pronounce certain words.

David 9:34

Like French change. So like beautiful and sort of luxurious sounding. Yes. And German is so hard and sharp. Guttle. Guttural. Like, you know.

Mick 9:46

It sounds like you're making demands every time you use German.

David 9:49

Yeah. I mean, I was actually shouting German to Lisa the other day, my wife, and I was like, this is why it sounds like such a crazy language, you know?

Mick 9:57

Yeah. You have to have that voice almost, that tone. Yeah. That's so funny. No, but it's true. We watch, of course, Sound of Music all the time because it's such a good movie. But um, you know, and you get a little bit of that mixture right there in the Alps region. But I mean, that's probably the only uh, you know, association I've I've really had with especially that area. But I mean if Austria, and then yeah, not far, right? I mean it's a train ride, maybe. Um, and then like the northern Italy, even is right there with the Alps. So interesting how that mixture of cultures where the Olympics just were. Right. Yes. But anyway, about conferences. Let's let's get back to this because I think this is important. We we try to give a balance, and I think you tend to inhabit the space of like publishing business more. And I tend to inhabit the the place of sort of the the squishy word play kind of part of the the um industry, which is like with authors and editors and talking about uh sentences basically. How how well do your sentences work and you know, paragraph to paragraph and adding transitions and and making sure the content works. And then, you know, I I often will default to my betters in talking about business because I just don't feel like I'm I'm very adept there. Now I spent a lot of time there. I mean, obviously my career was in in book publishing, but you know, I was always off in a corner at a desk working on words, so it wasn't like contracts and things like this. But when you go to a writer's conference, you need to be prepared to talk about in all of these different categories about books, not just content, but platform, obviously. Um, any marketing or publicity that that you are trying to put together for your own book, you're hoping to get some I at least a network going, right? You're you're hoping to meet people.

David 11:59

Yeah, that's what conferences are really good for. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Mick 12:03

So and you went to this one, I think, as an agent and a publisher, right?

David 12:07

Yep, yep. So tell me about it.

Mick 12:09

I because I don't didn't even know about it before.

David 12:11

Yeah, uh, it's called the Ember Gathering. Okay, and it was organized primarily by four individuals. Excuse me. Uh Tonise Spencer Helms, who happens to be a lake drive books author. Okay. Yay. And um Brian Recker, who's a hyponymus author. Right. She's your literary agency. And then um Adam Evers, who actually started uh Believer, which is uh gay Christian dating app. Awesome, really cool.

Mick 12:42

Yeah, yeah.

David 12:43

Um and uh Kat Gonzalez, who I I don't know as well. And um and then also it was co-hosted by Adam and then Naya Abernathy. Okay. Um and they were all sort of hosts, but um organizers. Yep, and they did a splendid job. It was so well organized. I you know, there there was somebody there, I don't know which one of them. I'm suspecting Adam was the person who really led a lot of things, uh, but I could be wrong. Um, but it was just really well, well run, well put very thoughtfully put together. Yeah. Um, I even just got a um an email asking for feedback after the conference for all the intend attendees, uh, which just goes to show you how heads up they are about how they're trying to be really um professional and careful and and how they put it together. It was uh it was a series, it was a series of of talks, there was music. Um there was let me see, there was an exhibit hall where um there were actually quite a few ministries present uh with with information about what they do. Um there was uh representation by the Seattle School of Psychology and Theology, if I said that. Oh, right, yeah.

Mick 14:02

Um, of course they'd be there. Yeah, I'm I'm looking online. A three-day justice-centered LGBTQ uh firming gathering for seekers, dreamers, and builders to heal from religious harm and rebuild life giving faith. That's very cool.

David 14:16

Yeah, very strong uh black creator, nice artist, yeah, um, author representation, career representation. And it's in Oakland, California, very diverse, which I like a lot about. Um one of the things they did that was really unique was they didn't just uh have us sit and listen to talks all day long. Um it did stretch from morning until evening, but they uh you know there and there was only it was like a Friday evening, all day Saturday, and a Sunday morning. Nice. But the Saturday, we were uh given lots of options uh for the afternoon in particular, like late morning into the afternoon, to um gather with others um under different formats. There some were like small, small group chatting going on with a leader on a topic.

Mick 15:09

Yeah.

David 15:10

Um informal, right? Yep, very informal. Others were um just more smaller talks, and and others were um they called them excursions where you can go out and with a group of people and just get tacos.

Mick 15:23

Yeah, that's so awesome.

David 15:24

I joined the there was one that went off into the Redwoods, I think. Okay, and then I went off went with the one that was the tour of Oakland, and I'm telling you, I got the best one.

Mick 15:33

That's so fun.

David 15:34

Because that we had so fun. We had this guy who was part of there was um this was done in partnership with a from what I can tell, so like a post-evangelical church that meets in this uh it was a combined, it was a shared workspace facility that had a large meeting room, large, large area space, event space. And uh I think they partnered with that church a lot for to bring in the sound equipment and and to bring in music.

Mick 16:01

You would need something like that, right?

David 16:02

Yeah, because they were really good at it, the screens. And um that's cool. There was one of the one of the guys from that church, let he's like a big aficionado of the history and complexion of Oakland. Nice, and uh shared all kinds of things, walked us around town. Yeah, um just you know, he talked about the diversity. Yep, he talked about justice issues, he talked about the culture and the character, different areas and events there, talked about what's going on with the sports teams leaving and the greed that's involved, but also how there's some local sports teams that people are rallying around. Cool. Um, the changing population, what happened with the pandemic. Oh, sure. Um, in terms of downtown office space, uh the protests where and it was also at the city hall, where first off there was a banner for Alyssa Lou, the the uh ice skater, congratulating her, welcoming her home. And then there was also, he mentioned that's where Kamala Harris um kicked off her presidential campaign. Man, yeah.

Mick 17:03

Yeah, that's significant. It was really good.

David 17:04

Yeah, that was an amazing tour. This is a national tour. I felt like I should have been paying the guy. It was and then the other thing that was great about it, this is this and this is what the conference organizers intended, I'm sure, or hoping for anyway, um, was you know, you're walking these sidewalks and you're just chatting with people, say, hey, what what what's your name? Where are you from? What are you what are you up to? What brings you here? How do you know these folks? And I learned so many things. Sure. I I met I met some people and had deeper conversations than I would have if I was just sitting in a chair listening to talks. There you go. That's right. Um and and actually I just got an email from someone uh yesterday, last night, yeah, sort of as a follow-up to one of those chats. Cool. Putting me in touch with someone else who he thought we'd have something to talk about. Um so that's that's like that's super cool. Yeah.

Mick 17:54

Um they're gonna do it again, I I'm hoping. I hope so.

David 17:58

This was first time, but yeah, I think they had a pretty good turnout and the the space itself was full. Yeah. Um and um a few hundred, I would imagine. No, I think it was less. You think so? Yeah, it wasn't a very big space, but maybe next time it'll be bigger. I think it was less, but um hopefully they hopefully they broke even. Yeah. I really hope so. And uh they did have a number of sponsors. Cool. So that helped. Okay. Um really good job organizing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and then and then in the exhibit hall, I got to be there with uh my Lake Drive books table. So I had a lot of Lake Drive books there. Right. But you know, this but this is the world.

Mick 18:39

I mean you sponsored, right?

David 18:40

So you well, yeah, I was more of an exhibitor. I paid the exhibitor rate. Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah, I don't know that I'm flush enough to do the sponsor stuff.

Mick 18:49

Yeah. That's a good way for you to kind of get the lay of the land, I think. Absolutely.

David 18:54

And be able to have a presence. But uh, you know what was really cool about it, and this is I think this is the world that we're in, was I, you know, I don't know all about all the official things, but uh I showed up at with both my LLCs, like Lake Drive Books and Hyponymus Literary. Yeah. I showed up with some of the books I happen to have for my hyponymus literary, and uh I just I just wanted to give people at the conference a chance to see some of these books because both Lake Drive and Hyponymus were we're we're working in a lot of similar orbits. Right. And there's all there's all just some very fascinating, very rich authors, yeah. Uh rich in terms of content and merit. The rich ones go to Lake Drive, right?

Mick 19:38

That's what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully. That's what people think. Maybe money to they're paying for their publishing, so they must be rich, right?

David 19:47

No, actually they're not. Actually, no, that that is absolutely not something that's going on. That's other things. And that's fine. That's actually the way we're gonna do it. I think we talked about that last time a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, we can. But it takes money to publish things up front. That's right, yeah. And then also I had um I I partnered or I worked with the the authors, the speakers who were there who have books. Okay. And so there was a good four or five of those. Nice. And those sold really well. Yeah. Um so it was it was just it was one of those experiences like we had at Wild Goose Festival back in August, where people are walking by the booth or by the by the table, and you just see them there manifesting their joy of reading and their joy of books.

Mick 20:27

Yeah.

David 20:28

Um, picking books up, picking books up, uh, thumbing through them. Yeah. Yeah. I try to, I always try to, true to me, I always try to sort of stay like a wallflower at those moments. But once they, once they're ready to buy something, I'm like, okay, yeah, that's a good one. This is what this is about. Okay, you really should talk to this author when you're done reading it. Yeah, yeah. You know, if you need help doing that, I'll I'll I'll connect to you.

Mick 20:50

That is something about your books that I think bears mentioning because all of those authors are real people who would love to hear from their readers. Yeah. I mean, across the board, all of them. And that's more true, more possible now than ever. Right. Yeah. And and there's not the sort of artificial barrier uh that we try to create it. Honestly, did try to create in Christian publishing when we were there. I can say this without getting into trouble. Uh, we tried to create this uh mystique, right? That these authors were in a vaulted space. That you you could approach them. I mean, they they seemed approachable and kind and friendly a lot of the time. And I'm not saying this of all Christian publishing. I'm just saying that it was it was more uh emblematic to me of like a general market, big business uh a attitude and atmosphere um in Christian publishing over there. Right. What I'm talking about with you know, the bigger Christian publishers that we worked for, then w you know, it seemed like it should be more like what you're talking about, grassroots. Yeah. Come as you are, informal, people who are welcome, actually welcoming, not just giving you lip service about oh, I'm so kind or friendly, and then actually give you the cold shoulder. Uh that happens in Christian publishing more and more often. And I I felt reasons for that. Closed out and and kind of like surprised. Yeah. You know, that you're getting lip service to this sort of inviting conversation, and then it turns out, oh no, they don't have time for you. Yeah. And it's authors, it's agents, it's editors, it's executives. It doesn't matter who it is, anyone in the Christian industry knows that that exists.

David 22:40

It's like trying to create an aura of authority. And I think I think that that somewhat is a natural part of book publishing. It is. Um, and I think sometimes in book publishing, especially when an author gets really popular, it's it's you know, it's hard for them. It becomes difficult to hard for readers to have access to them, it's hard for them to have access to readers because uh but I do think in I do think though we have g guru culture here in the United States. Right. And celebrity. Sometimes that lack of access is an intentional, you know. Yes. I'm I'm on a pedestal, I'm too important to be messed with.

Mick 23:16

And I'm that brilliant. And here's my email, and I'll let my assistant handle that. Yeah. It's it's funny, and I get this when you get too big. I I get that that is a reality and a necessity. I think we all do on some level. We expect celebrity culture to be a little bit. I mean, you're gonna be hamstrung trying to respond to everybody. You just are. And yet there's all these stories of people who are real people and how amazing that is, that they're so, you know, I don't know, approachable still, or so uh I don't I don't even know where necessarily I'm going with this, but I've just I've experienced it a lot. And when I'm talking about like Lake Drive authors and people who you're talking to at this Emperor conference, yeah, could just be someone on the street and you would never know, but they have this great book out that hasn't been published in a traditional way because maybe they just want to stay informal and grassroots and progressive, let's say, right? Rather than part of the system.

David 24:12

Yeah.

Mick 24:13

And I think that's increasingly a a distinction that I like to call out and talk about.

David 24:18

There's hope there too. It's less, you know, it's more, it's far more democratic. Democratic. Far more authentic. You actually have a lot of people in the room talking into this material. Right. And it's not just us trying to um be virtuous about what we do because we can't scale it. Virtue signal because we can't scale it. Yes. It's more this actually that's actually there. It's actually there for to be had.

Mick 24:43

It's there for the token author that we can put in our catalog and say we we are diverse too. We're actually caring about what they're talking about. And we are um we being like Lake Drive and other publishers, progressive publishers like you, are trying to promote that material in order to, yeah, expand it, but but really just make connections.

David 25:08

Yep. And I think that's you know, for authors who are listening, you know, that's that's something that uh we've talked about a lot is making connections. Um I do think that um you having like public speaking is always a key component of platform, right? If you can find your way into it. And um, one of the ways would be going to conferences like like Ember or Um Wild Goose, which I mentioned. There's the post-evangelical collective that's happening in April in Boston.

Mick 25:40

Yep.

David 25:40

Um, that's more for like you know, church leaders and lay leaders in church who are trying to find faith-driven communities in a po you know in without evangelic without the baggage of evangelicalism. Um lots of authors there too. Theology Bible camp is one. Okay there there aren't there aren't a lot of these, and they're not very big, any of them. Right. But there's tremendous opportunity too. And the advantage of something that's not being big is that you you really can connect with people. Right. And that was that was one of that was probably the one of the most pleasant things about my experience this past weekend. I saw some authors I work with directly. Yeah. Um, shout out to Ryan Stoller, Kara Meredith, who was not at the conference, but there lives in her oakland, um, Brian Recker, and then I saw uh Tamise Spencer Holmes, who's a lake drive author, and and and Trey Ferguson, who's a lake drive author. But I also saw people that I've had conversations with who could be potential authors for that I would work with. Um I saw people who just know people.

Mick 26:44

Yeah.

David 26:46

And I and also it was also fun as the as the publishing professional to look and to watch the authors that I know connecting with people there and seeing who they know. So I first off, I understand them better. Now I know how to better work with them. Sure.

Mick 27:02

Yeah.

David 27:02

But second of all, it's it was just it's impressive. I mean, I think I think that it's it, you know, uh none of these, none of these conferences are perfect. None of them are the way I would design them necessarily. Sure. Um, they're all different from each other. In fact, you show up to them as a publishing person, you go, or like when I when I bring books, I'm like, well, which books should I bring to this conference? Right, you never know. Um and I'm not sure. Yeah. Um, but one of the things that happens is there's sort of like the conference that happens outside the conference. And and it's a it's a way to come together. I had I had uh breakfast with Ryan Stoller that was just so delightful. Um at a in a it was a hotel breakfast, which I haven't had as a publishing person in a long time. Nice. I usually don't pay for hotel breakfast, but this one wasn't this one's fine. But um that's uh usually I go somewhere cheap. I know.

Mick 27:57

It's gonna be better too.

David 27:58

Um just to see that that that um, you know, hey, have you ever met so-and-so? Um and I will say there was a really good vibe at Ember. Yeah, I can imagine with regard to that in particular. It felt really um, you know, not just like trying to be look how good we are or how nice we are, but it was gen it felt genuine.

Mick 28:22

I you use the word democratic. I I like egalitarian, right? It's it and this is probably a Latin word, so you know, but at the same time it serves. I I think if not Anglo-Saxon. No, I don't know. Maybe it is. We'll have to look it up. Oh, I'm so interested in that now. But like like if it's egalitarian, and it it's allowing for a lot of different people, and that's what that's the nature of diversity, right? A lot of different people to have their voices heard. Yeah, that is all I mean, when you read what Ember Gathering was about, yeah, it it's the same. I mean, maybe it's a different language, but it's the same thing talking about over and over, right? When you have grown up in a restrictive, yeah, some people use the term high control religious atmosphere, whether that was culty or you know, just religious in nature, it's a very um uncomfortable, yeah, formal sort of space, right? And and you're supposed to be reverent and quiet, and you know this feeling, everybody knows this feeling, and there's a place for it. I'm not arguing against it. I just think that when we're talking about going to an ember gathering, there's gonna be a lot of different types of people there. Right. And who are they centering? Right. Are they centering the ones with power, are they centering the ones who have new ideas and and need some centering because they haven't felt that before wherever they're coming from?

David 29:44

And it's not always even just who they're centering, but what kinds of conversations, what kind of ideas? I would say that they were both um, you know, post-evangelical, but also ex-evangelical. And maybe some would describe themselves as post-Christian. Sure. There's a lot of Yeah, we just don't like the There's a lot of shades on how we define these things. People different people define them differently. Right. But I would say that, you know, that there were like but between those two or three camps, I don't think they all would have agreed on what should have been going on at that conference. No, but you go anyway and you hope that it's it's welcoming enough. I would say that was the word that was probably the strongest word for me. I felt welcomed there. I felt others felt welcomed. I'm sure there was some who probably didn't always feel as welcome. Um because that's just the nature of these things, and I hope not, but um yeah, I yeah, so I mean I think that's you know, as as an author, like like I'm you know, I'm behind a computer all day long as a publishing person. And to get out in front of and to be around people and not not to, you know, of course there's the anxiety, you know. Sure. You don't sleep well that first night when you're traveling never. Yeah. That's true. Um, yeah. So I I think that if you can cultivate like real life relationships in and find ways of being in um, you know, real spaces, not just online spaces, which I'm I'm all for the online spaces. There's tremendous power there. That's absolutely and in fact that's what else do we have right now.

Mick 31:21

Well, and it can feel safer, I think quite honestly, it can feel safer to a lot of people who have been burned at other conferences.

David 31:27

Yeah. Yeah, but being uh in real life um has just was just it's so powerful, you know. We're we're talking about nonfiction authors mostly, nonfiction kinds of spaces, but I I do think that as a as book people, as book authors and writers, there are other opportunities. And we kind of have to, I think now it's not as easy to make them happen. We kind of have to seek them out, or maybe even create them ourselves. And that's frankly, that's what some of these organizers did with they created this themselves. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, yeah.

Mick 32:02

And I think it's it is a collective. You mentioned a lot of people who are kind of the organizers and hosts, so it's not just like one or two folks who decided they would.

David 32:12

There were a lot of favors called in, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Mick 32:15

Yeah, that's very cool. I mean, if we were gonna do something, and maybe we will at some point, who knows? But uh I think it would be like that. It would be more democratic, egalitarian. What what ideas and people do we want to center? I think we start there and say, you know, uh, how can we shift the power? Yeah, like when people show up to this, could this be different? Could it feel different? And and that's gonna start from the ground floor and a lot of people who are kind of contributing to that idea together. That sounds cool. It was the three-day conference, right? And and were there, I mean, I'm imagining sessions, breakout sessions, and and keynotes.

David 32:51

Yeah, yeah, I well yeah. So I mean that's your basic format. Yeah, it was a different, it had that it had its own sort of setup, but yeah.

Mick 32:59

Yeah. Yeah, because we're going to the faith and writing conference at Calvin Calvin. Calvin Festival Festival of Faith and Writing in April. Yep. And that's another one that's be a lake drive uh table there as well. Yeah. Yeah. So uh build is more of a reader's conference than a writer's conference, maybe. Yeah. Because it's not really set up to uh I don't know if there's writer interviews with editors or agents or things like that there.

David 33:25

There you can have one-on-one meetings, they do make sense of the thing.

Mick 33:27

It's more just to talk to the authors and yeah, the the people who are coming.

David 33:31

I'd say it's yeah, it's not like your typical writer's conference, even though it talks about writing. Yeah. It's more of a reader's conference, I think. But writing does get talked about and writing. But I really appreciate writers do everyday writers do show up.

Mick 33:43

Yeah. That's what all writers are, right? They're everyday writers. Right. I always prefer to work with people. I mean, as an editor, obviously this is true, but I prefer to work with people who read books uh than people who just want to write a book and they're like, what what books do you read? And they give me a blank stare. Yeah. Um yeah, so so a three-day kind of thing, getting together to connect with people. I mean, I'm always I'm gonna just say this. I'm I'm always reticent when a conference builds itself as faith, anything faith in there or in includes worship in the event. I get definitely I feel I feel like that's that's just that's that's really volatile.

David 34:23

I went there with the same feelings.

Mick 34:25

So I I tend to avoid the worship and I I avoid the faith talks because I just don't want people putting their fingers in that right now.

David 34:34

And I think there were other people there who were um felt the who aren't yeah, who felt the same way. There was a mixture. Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 34:44

So I I think if if someone felt that way or if they felt, you know, that they're still sort of processing some of their worship past experiences and things, they wouldn't have had to feel out of place to not attend or not speak in that way.

David 35:00

And I think it's a very real question as to what we're doing with religion and and faith in the United States in particular right now. Yeah. Uh what is what is the next step? You know, there's a whole spectrum of those of us who are saying, yeah, let's let's stop what we're doing. Right. Um, evangelical wise. Yeah. We need to change this. But some are saying, but you still got to get back to go certain things. Yeah. Right. That's yeah. But but it could be that it like in the next you know hundred years, it really is supposed to look even very different without without necessarily getting rid of talking about what's sacred and what matters and what's ethical and what or having a space for that. Yeah.

Mick 35:40

Yeah, I I agree. I it just shouldn't be compulsory. Right. And I I think if we can all let go of some of these sacred cows that we have, like having a pastor on a stage telling everyone what God's view of whatever is, then maybe you don't don't have to have right. Right. Conservative or progressive. Right, exactly. Like maybe maybe we could just go back to like a a more egalitarian Quaker way, or maybe uh smaller groups, not big groups, right? I think there's something to be said for this. Yeah. Like if you get too big a church, you're gonna have problems. I don't care who what what the theology is or who you are, you're gonna have power problems. Right. And and are they working at that? Is right is what they're doing to combat that effective? Like these are all conversations that yeah, we need to be having, right?

David 36:27

I think that's a very real critique about like the size of your church. You know, if you're trying to grow your church really huge, that's it. Maybe you shouldn't do that. What's going on here?

Mick 36:36

Yeah, yeah. Maybe it should stay local and small. And why are you trying to do that?

David 36:40

Yep.

Mick 36:40

Yeah, I I do I think there's conversations.

David 36:43

And what kind of and what kind of life and structure can you have outside of that? Yeah, instead of consolidating all of this, all these dollars to you know, build giant buildings and have all these programs. And sure there's some outreach and some charity work, but you know, I think I think I'm not a pastor, you're not a pastor, but there's some giant budgets there.

Mick 37:08

Pastor dads. Yeah. And yeah, we saw what happened. Right. And and I don't think it's it's we're not just speaking from our trauma people. And yeah, maybe it's not relevant. I would love to talk more about this. That's a different podcast, probably. And maybe it's not relevant necessarily to all publishing people, but I do think and in terms of disrupting things, yeah. We have to be asking these questions and and inviting the conversation rather than trying to shut it down. Right. And that's what I think is is happening far too often.

David 37:35

And so much book publishing has taken place because of these structures. Because of the church, because of the pastors who are powerful. That's right. Right. Where it's not egalitarian. Exactly. Yeah. They tell you literally not egalitarian.

Mick 37:49

Yeah. Some of them will just say, no, we're not. But yeah. Uh anyway. It's hierarchical. There's a lot to talk about. It's complementarian. It's authoritarian. These are all Latinate words, I'm pretty sure. I'm gonna go look them up. Yeah. Uh thanks for being here, everybody. This is this is fun. And I I am really grateful, David, for your um continued engagement with these questions. I think it gives people the freedom and the space to just explore stuff, maybe thoughts they haven't had before. And then go seek it out. Go look up the Ember Gathering, see when they're gonna have their next one next year. Yeah, and if it's a fit for you. Yeah. Or the Faith and Writing Conference, maybe. Uh Calvin. Um start to see or start your own. We're gonna be there. So yeah, come on out and say hi. Uh, on that note, I would love to hear some feedback. If anybody has thoughts, uh ideas, we are definitely open to that, and we have been all along. We just haven't said it on our podcast. Feedback on the podcast, ideas that you have for us to talk about in terms of disruption, um, big ideas. We might point you back to an earlier episode, but if we haven't covered it, we would love to. Um, we're very free form here. We're just kind of exploring. Yep. Uh so yeah, please feel free to let us know your thoughts, positive or negative.

David 39:06

Leave us a rating.

Mick 39:07

Leave us a rating, please. Get people listening to this. We we need more people. But yeah, thanks. Thanks for being here.

David 39:14

We're starting from the ground up on this thing, no matter what. So you can't take us any further down than we already are.

Mick 39:18

Exactly. It's gonna be what it is, people, okay? So enjoy it or don't, uh, and plan your time accordingly. All right. Thank you, Mick. Talk to you later.