Connections, Creativity, and Chicken Scratch, with PW Religion Writer Ann Byle

In this conversation with long-time journalist, author, and writing coach Ann Byle, she provided us with some industry analysis, career advice, and some opinionated takes on relevant themes, particularly getting creative in modern Christian publishing.

The publishing landscape is definitely changing, so she shared the difference between vanity and custom publishing and noted that as part of her work covering Publishers Weekly’s religion section, custom-published books are earning more genuine respect in the marketplace.

Connections are still king and take time, but with some "chicken scratch creativity," you can build a career that lasts.

Ann Byle is at annbylewriter.com

Her book is Chicken Scratch: Lessons on Living Creatively from a Flock of Hens

Religion Book Line newsletter is at PublishersWeekly.com

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

Mick 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome back to Publishing Disrupted. I am editor Mick Silva.

David 0:07

And I am indie publisher and literary agent David Morris.

Mick 0:12

And we are two former Christian publishing industry experts, professionals learning to navigate the massive independent book market. This podcast explores the ways in which book publishing is changing, the many, many ways and how writers can best meet that challenge. Lots of disruptions, lots of changes in the industry to us personally as well. So we're just covering all of those insights. It's all related. And it just keeps continuing. So, we have endless material.

David 0:44

Yes, that's true.

Mick 0:45

And yeah, we we do believe books still matter, and so we're always here trying to convince the world that books still matter. People there's such things as books.

David 0:58

Immersive reads, right?

Mick 0:59

Yeah, yeah, immersive reads. So yeah, if you're shifting from traditional publishing, if you're an author, if you're a industry professional, anybody who has opinions about this--

David 1:12

Or even want to know about traditional publishing.

Mick 1:14

Yeah, exactly.

David 1:15

Because we try and learn about it a lot.

Mick 1:17

Yeah, we're not against it.

David 1:18

Well, I am.

Mick 1:20

David's against it.

David 1:22

Why did I say that?

Mick 1:28

Industry (somewhat) professionals, we should say. But there are many challenges, and so we're just trying to discuss many of the challenges and the opportunities that we see for authors in this space. And so if that's of interest to you, we will be discussing that for the rest of this season at least, and we'll see where we go from there. But yeah, we today we we actually have a guest with us, and so we are going to introduce her as well. Ann Byle is with us today.

David 1:55

Yeah, yeah. And, if I may introduce Ann, I mean we've kind of known of each other and Mick as well for often in maybe different ways, but over quite some time. You know, perhaps I might know you first and foremost just from your your role in writing features for religion coverage in Publisher's Weekly.

Ann 2:19

Yes, that's very true.

David 2:20

Yeah, and um but then also you have been living in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area for quite some time. You wrote for the Grand Rapids Press, correct?

Ann 2:29

Yep. I grew up here in Grand Rapids.

David 2:31

Yeah, yeah. And um also you write for Grand Rapids magazine.

Ann 2:36

That's true, since no one writes for the press anymore.

David 2:40

Yeah.

Ann 2:40

Oh oops.

Mick 2:41

Actual press, yeah.

David 2:42

It's that monthly magazine that features doctors all the time, like the best doctors. But that's where the money comes from to provide for the editorial.

Ann 2:50

Exactly.

David 2:51

Yeah. Um, and you are also an author. Let me read, let me I I have your wonderful, tidy, um, really nicely designed book from uh Broadleaf publishing called Chicken Scratch: Lessons on Living Creatively from a Flock of Hens. And um, I think this is a really cool book that um you wrote this. Um I know I'm introing you, but you can interrupt me and tell me if I'm saying it wrong. But you basically wrote this to help people, writers, particularly perhaps, um, enhance, think about their creativity. And you did this through the through the vehicle of talking about chickens that you have had.

Ann 3:30

Yes, I have no chickens anymore because we have a lot of dogs and visiting dogs that like chickens to eat. So when the last one died, we said no, we had them for 12 years, and I would sit in my backyard and watch them.

David 3:43

Uh-huh. When-- did the dog eat the chicken?

Ann 3:46

No.

Mick 3:47

No. Terrorized, more.

Ann 3:50

We lost two to various dogs, not ours.

Speaker 2 3:52

Oh, okay.

Ann 3:53

So chickens have their lifespan, and I had my lifespan of caring for chickens. And so I learned just they're hilarious. Yeah. And so I thought the book was originally going to be just for writers, and the editor called and said, Could you make it for all creatives? And I said, Well, that's a brilliant idea. So I was able to do that.

David 4:14

So your bio in the back of the book says Ann Byle is a journalist and nonfiction writer known for her trend pieces with publishers weekly and features with Grand Rapids Magazine and various nonprofit organizations. You've authored and co-authored many books, including, and here's a good one, everybody, The Joy of Working from Home, Embracing the Freedom, Avoiding the Pitfalls. She is a frequent speaker at writers' conferences, and we were just talking about that before we started recording, and is a former adjunct professor in journalism. And you live in Grand Rapids, Michigan with your husband, dog, cat, but no more chickens, even though they're here in this in this particular bio and for adult adult children. The memory of chickens and things live with thank you so much for being here. I do want to say that at the outset.

Ann 4:58

And um I love your podcast, so it's a real honor to be asked.

Mick 5:02

I've never heard anyone say that before.

David 5:05

And to be able to do it in person, which is awesome. Grand Rapids is kind of a it's historically kind of a you know, a gathering place for publishing professionals and companies. It's changed, it's changed some.

Ann 5:16

At one time there were five, um, just based right here in Grand Rapids.

David 5:20

Oh, how would you count those five?

Mick 5:21

Yeah.

Ann 5:22

Zondervan, Baker Publishing Group, Eerdman's, Kregel, and Our Daily Bread. Right. And then it was Discovery House.

David 5:29

Okay. Okay. Our Daily Bread became -- well, it has a Discovery House imprint connected to it.

Ann 5:34

Yes. And then it when it started, it was originally RBC Ministries and Discovery House, and now it's all under the umbrella of Our Daily Bread.

David 5:42

Gotcha. Yeah. And now you say there's like not as many, would you say?

Ann 5:46

Well, Zondervan doesn't even have an office anymore.

David 5:48

Right. They do have a small one that they can rent for space. But you're right, it's totally gone.

Ann 5:54

And it's not independently owned either.

David 5:56

Right.

Ann 5:56

Whereas the other ones are.

David 5:58

Zondervan used to have a very large office space with a very large warehouse attached to it back in the heyday of Christian [publishing].

Ann 6:06

I remember going there. I used to do some uh marketing writing for them.

David 6:11

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Ann 6:12

And now Baker Publishing still has its original building. Kregel's moved a couple times, Eerdman's moved.

David 6:18

That's right. Right.

Ann 6:19

And Our Daily Bread still stays on Kraft [Street]. Yes.

David 6:24

Yeah. So we so we talk about um you know publishing, how how publishing has been disrupted. That's sort of the premise of this show, obviously. Um, and and we talk about it in terms of you know, how has the business been interrupted or disrupted? Um how you know, both both a business and for authors, how has it been, how how how have you experienced personally the disruption and and what kind of agent of change do you see yourself in the continuing changes and disruption? And you don't have to answer all that right now. Okay. But but let's just ask you a very practical question. And then we'd I'd love to get into, you know, let's let's definitely talk about how things work for you as an author and and and what PW is up to these days. Things that you're allowed to talk about, too. I don't we don't want to put you on the spot. Um but um uh how would you say that publishing is changed?

Ann 7:16

I think there is much more acceptance of custom or self-published books. I see out in the marketplace.

David 7:26

That's something coming from somebody who writes for PW.

Ann 7:29

Well, exactly, and they don't review um custom published books, self-published books. I see a distinction between those two. Self-published is you send in your grocery list and you pay $10,000 and they publish it.

Speaker 2 7:40

Right. Right.

Ann 7:41

But custom publishing is you hire the the intermediary, you pay them, but they create a beautiful book for you.

David 7:49

Professionals.

Ann 7:49

Yes. And I think that is really the way to go if you can invest in that process without going broke, and you can sell them on your own. I think it's very viable. Whereas years ago, I was a book review editor at the Grand Rapids Press, and I could always tell a self-published book.

Speaker 2 8:09

Right.

Ann 8:09

And I felt kind of sorry for the people because the cover was awful and the editing was bad and the writing was iffy.

Mick 8:16

And that's what people think about. Right. They think indie publishing, self-publishing, even hybrid press, what you call uh Lake Drive books, what David works on, they think, oh, this is going to be a shoddy product.

Ann 8:28

And it's not that way anymore. If the author is willing to invest in the time and effort to create a really good book, it that also looks good. So I think that has changed a lot. I think publishers. And I will at risk of irritating them all, I think they've sold their souls to make money on big name authors.

David 8:54

We'll edit that part out. No, we won't.

Ann 8:58

I think I get that it's a business.

David 9:00

We're speaking to the a receptive audience.

Mick 9:02

No, we've we've crossed that bridge. We're not going back to the remote. We're like way past yeah.

Ann 9:06

But you see all these big name authors. I I put together the deals for Publishers Weekly that runs Religion Book Line every other week. So I see what what deals are coming through. They don't we don't put the money in and they don't tell us the money, how much an author is made. But these are all in that when I'm reading those, they're all pastors, podcasters, influencers. This is not, you know, Sabrina, who is a really good writer. That's that's really not what it is. Now, granted, they may be only sending me the big name deals because then it draws big name authors to them, but these are all they're not average people. They're people who have a huge platform. And I feel like publishers have, in the interest of business and money, only want those kinds of authors anymore, which is kind of too bad. Because you get some pretty shallow books. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

David 10:03

And why would you think that publishing publishers have become more like that? They're more focused on the Trevor Burrus. Well, they gotta make money. Right.

Ann 10:11

You know, they have to support a staff, they have to pay their people, they have to have reputation out there in the world. Now I'm not saying that all publishers do this all the time.

Speaker 2 10:21

Right.

Ann 10:22

Sometimes they do that so that they can do other things. Right. So they can publish theology books that are gonna sell 12 copies.

David 10:31

Or more literary books or academic books, maybe academic books. Right.

Ann 10:37

And I understand all of that. And also you see some really great stuff coming out that you know is not gonna sell. I mean, it might sell a thousand copies. So I appreciate that they are doing their due diligence in getting quality books out there and also looking for authors who are gonna make them some money so that they can do that. Yeah.

David 11:02

Well, I I will I do want to completely affirm the criticism though. Uh publishing has become more top-heavy. There's fewer independent, there's fewer mid-level publishers and a lot more indies these days. Um the big five have been trying to gobble each other up, um, and they've done a pretty good job of that. And they they they fold their imprints into their bigger company and say that the distinctiveness will continue, but it doesn't really. Um it's just drawing bigger names.

unknown 12:04

Right.

David 13:08

Right, right. So why wouldn't books be selling as well today, do you think? That's that seems to me to be I I'm kind of jumping jumping topics there.

Mick 13:16

But there's there's a good question though.

David 13:18

But it's it's harder to get you don't see you you would know about bestseller lists. It's you don't see books hitting the bestseller list, at least in the religious market, and sticking around like they used to. There's some, there's some that do, but a lot of them show up in the first week and then they're gone.

Ann 13:32

Well, that's that's a sleight of hand by the publisher, too, by getting a lot of pre-orders. And then, you know, if all those pre-orders are returned and then they get to say New York Times bestseller.

Speaker 2 13:43

Sure.

Ann 13:44

Because they were on it one week. But if you look at those bestseller lists, what's on it every single time? Yeah. The five love languages. Yeah. Redeeming love. Yeah.

David 13:52

You know, boundaries, boundaries, purpose-driven life.

Ann 13:55

Yeah. So it's the perpetual ones.

David 13:58

Yeah.

Ann 13:58

Well, and never buy purpose-driven life new because you can go to every thrift store and find one. Why is that still selling?

David 14:04

They used to make Christmas trees out of the stacks of purpose-driven life books.

Ann 14:08

Yeah. And you can buy them in thrift stores because I go to thrift stores in there every time. Yeah. So it's just an interesting how they create those bestseller lists. Yeah. Because I think sometimes it's artificially done so that you can say New York Times bestseller for six hours.

Mick 14:26

We had a whole episode on bestsellers and how meaningless that can be. Uh you know, you're talking about celebrity books, um, influencer books. What even is an influencer? Nobody can tell me. Um, it's less less shelf space. We've talked about that overall. I think there's just more competition. It's crowded. Um, attention spans obviously are an issue. Uh different formats for books, you don't just go into a bookstore anymore, you buy the audio, or you know, or you order it from online. Or exactly.

Ann 14:56

I also sometimes think, is a publisher hoping for that person's 50,000 followers, 20,000 of them to buy the book, and then they're happy.

Mick 15:07

Right. Maybe that's sufficient.

Ann 15:08

And maybe it is supposed to be short term.

Mick 15:10

Yeah.

Ann 15:11

I'm of the opinion that there's way too many mommy books out there and how to be a better mom and how to teach your kid to pray and all this stuff. And sometimes all you gotta do is just get through the day and they're all still alive. Yeah. So I get tired of doing deals on mom books, and so there's a lot of Christian living titles and devotionals for women. I help judge the ECPA contest on book on gift books and devotionals. I didn't know there were so many devotionals out there in the world.

Mick 15:44

Oh, yeah.

Ann 15:45

How are they even even coming breaking even?

Mick 15:49

Right. How is that possible?

Ann 15:51

I I just think apparently every woman but me is doing a devotional. Sure.

Mick 15:55

Seems like it. Yeah. Our daily bread basically is devotionals.

Ann 15:59

I mean, that's obviously they do more than that, but well, and I can hardly laugh at our daily bread since my dad wrote for them for years. Is that right? He wrote devotionals for them, sure. Oh, Nepo Baby. I love that. That's different than books, though. Although he did some books for them.

David 16:13

Christian publishing Nepo Baby.

Mick 16:14

Yeah, no kidding.

Ann 16:15

That's rare. Well, I'm just going writer Nepo Baby.

David 16:17

Yeah. Well, we'll talk about that a little bit. Um, I mean, I'm curious to hear you talk about your book's been out now for a couple of years, more than a couple, maybe. It's says 2023 for a copyright date, um, Chicken Scratch. Um, and uh, you know, talk about maybe maybe there's a two-part question. Talk about your background as a writer. Like what what what got you going? Was it college? And then I'd love to hear like zero in on what's your experience been since Chicken Scratch has been out as an author.

Ann 16:49

Well, I majored in college in English not to teach, which is an official major because everyone assumes you're gonna teach English. And then I got a job at Moody Publishing, um, writing jacket copy and catalog copy. I have no idea why they fought they hired me because I was a rookie right out of college and probably because I took a really low salary, whatever.

David 17:11

No one else is willing to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Just go to show you, too, that sometimes jacket copy is not written by experienced people.

Ann 17:18

Aaron Ross Powell It was written by a 22-year-old. No offense. No offense. But I learned a lot, and guess who my ultimate big boss was? Jerry Jenkins. Hey. So I've known him since I was in my twenties and interviewed him numerous times, and he was in my books on writing and famous or infamous Left Behind. Also, never buy one of those new because you can get them all in the thrift store.

David 17:41

There's a commentary going on here already.

Ann 17:45

So um I worked there for a couple years and learned a lot about publishing, and then I came back here to Grand Rapids. In the meantime, I had learned a computer system at Moody that all major newspapers in the country used at the time. So when I waltzed into the press and said, I think I'd like to be a copy editor, they hired me part-time, making way more than I made at Moody working full-time. So I worked part-time at the press.

David 18:13

You said using a technology?

Ann 18:15

A technology. It was then, this was in the 80s, was called ATEX. And I learned it at Moody to bring the order form in-house because this was also before you know you you went to CBA with an order form in the publisher, you know.

David 18:32

The book conference, yeah.

Ann 18:32

Yeah. And then the bookstores would literally check off the book they wanted.

Mick 18:36

Right in the book.

Ann 18:37

Yeah. Yeah. So now, of course, you don't need that. But that's great. Then the press used that. And so they hired me on the copy desk where I worked part-time for about eight months. And then my boss said, Hey Ann, wasn't your last job something to do with books? I said, Well, yeah, it was. He said, Oh, good, you're the book review editor. So I took over that. Awesome. And it was a one-page in the Sunday paper. So I um organized that, sent out books to review, wrote some, and also worked on the copy desk for eight years. And then I left and went to our daily bread, RBC Ministries, and worked in the marketing department for a while, for two and a half years, and had some more kids. You know, pretty soon you got a million kids. And then my husband got a full-time teaching job. So naturally, being the good wife, I stayed home and had some more kids. And so I ended up with four spaced by 10 years. And so I've been freelancing for 28 years.

David 19:44

So you're freelancing through motherhood.

Ann 19:46

Oh, yeah.

David 19:47

Quite a bit. Yeah. Sounds like. Yeah.

Ann 19:49

And strange thing happened. Strange things happened while I was writing or interviewing. Um, one time my little boys unscrewed all of the screws from the entertainment center doors and took them out. They were like four and two. And I was like, oh, I guess I should have been paying attention instead of writing that story on my clam book Mac. And I never put it back on. I thought it was so cool. And then one time one of them came in and said, Mom, can I shoot this baby gun? I'm talking to Lauren Winner on the phone.

Speaker 2 20:20

Oh.

Ann 20:20

I'm like, uh, hold on a second, because here's a four-year-old, you know, with a baby gun. So stuff happened, and I managed to life of a freelance writer for and mom. Yeah. So I tell freelance journalists. I tell girls, women, young women, it is the hardest thing you will ever do is to write and raise your kids. And it is the most rewarding. Wow. Because I created a life that I love in that, yeah, I can take a day off. Um, my husband got all antsy one time and thought maybe I should get a full-time job again. I said, I've been out of the workforce 20 years. I've created this life. No.

Speaker 2 21:05

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Ann 21:07

So um now in rot as I think about that, my kids are all grown. I'm gonna be a grandma in June for the first time. The youngest one is having a baby. Well, his wife is. And I think now that life has come to fruition. I can go wherever I want.

David 21:25

Yeah. Especially in today's world, you're you're better trained for the work environment we're all in in this book that you wrote about um the joy of working from home.

Ann 21:35

But I can't teach anywhere because I don't have a master's degree or a PhD. So all that experience is moot in the educational world, but it's it's fun in the writing world.

David 21:44

Yeah.

Mick 21:45

Yeah, works fine for bylines and magazines, yeah. PW. You've got tons of experience.

David 21:52

I think any English department or writing program would be would should die to have you come in somehow.

Ann 21:57

Well, I did teach a feature writing class at Cornerstone. University, not this past fall, but the fall before. But that's for other reasons, which we probably shouldn't talk about on here. Okay. Why they needed adjuncts so quickly.

Mick 22:13

I think that was in the news though. I mean they did go ahead and fire. It's a higher education. Yeah.

David 22:18

Yeah.

Mick 22:18

Yeah. Yeah. That was that was kind of a kerfuffle for a while there.

David 22:22

All right. So back to so what were you talking to Lauren Winter about? Does everybody know who Lauren Winter is? Girl Meets God. Girl Meets God was a big hit back in the back in the 90s, maybe.

Mick 22:31

Generated some interest in memoir around the same time as uh Blue Like Jazz and such. Yeah.

Ann 22:38

I was interviewing her, I think, for a story, but also I interviewed her for my first book on writing.

Speaker 2 22:45

Oh.

Ann 22:45

Published in the in the late 90s, I think. So I was piggybacking actual paying work with hey, would you talk to me about writing?

David 22:56

Yep. There's another thing, another great skill for working from home.

Ann 22:59

It's multitasking. And for all freelancers, do the interviews and use them more than once if you can. Yeah. You know, walk, walk through what are you doing and can I use that in a different way?

Mick 23:12

I've used that interview you did with me in whatever book that is, Christian Publishing.

Ann 23:17

Oh, Christian Publishing 101. It came out in 2000. It was a second version kind of.

Mick 23:22

You saw me at what, Mount Herman Writers Conference? Oh, yeah, that's yes. We did interviews. You interviewed a whole bunch of people in the Christian publishing uh area. And my interview in there has been really helpful for at least for me. I don't know for anyone else, but you know, I've used it in many ways. Oh good. Yeah, yeah.

David 23:40

Your interview for yourself has been very helpful for that.

Mick 23:42

Basically she was interviewing me about like uh editing or technique, I think maybe uh uh self-editing for for authors and that kind of thing. So yeah, no, but but using reusing material is yeah like and tip typically it's pr pretty endless. I mean, if you can I know you do this too, you know, you you try to put stuff out there that that has uh perennial interest.

David 24:03

Yes, right, yes, or repurpose or recycle things. Yeah, yeah. I was just joking because it's it's true sometimes we go back to the things that we were interviewed about or written about, and like, oh, I forgot I said that. I forgot I even know this stuff. Hold it off the channel.

Ann 24:16

Aren't I smart? Yeah, maybe I better read this again.

Mick 24:20

Yeah. But I mean, if you've been in the industry a while or freelancing for a while, you you you end up with a lot of materials or and almost more importantly, connections. Mm-hmm. Good.

Ann 24:31

I just I interviewed an author a while back and got to know her through various places, and I was able to contact her, and she's in this story that we'll run next week in Religion Book Line. Because I know her. Not that we're intimate friends, but the publishing world is small.

Mick 24:51

Much smaller than people realize. Yeah. Yeah.

David 24:53

You you just said a word that really hits on a theme we've talked a lot about in how publishing is disrupted and what it's like today. Use the word connections. You find connections. Um, you have to be one of the most connected people we know in publishing because you talk to different publishers, you talk to different authors, you're going to different conferences, you know, you're seeing all the things that are going on out there.

Ann 25:15

Um in a limited sense sense, yes. Yeah. I mean, just nobody can see all of it.

David 25:21

As anyone. Even just thinking to talking to an author like Lauren Winter way back. Um, how how do you feel the sense of community has changed over time or making connections? Is it easier? Is it harder? Um, what does it look like for you these days? You feel isolated, you feel as connected as ever?

Ann 25:39

I think social media has helped in that way, where technology has helped. People stay connected. Now, I'm not real active on social media, which is the bane of my existence as far as promoting chicken scratch, but people are connected in much different ways now. And you can connect on the internet or or through your social media and become really good friends, and then you've never met in person. So I think lots of instances of that. Yes. And so in that way, I think connection is easier. But I also think there's something to be said for meeting in person.

David 26:20

And like we're doing today, which is Right. Yeah.

Ann 26:22

Like I'm gonna hopefully get to an author event tonight.

David 26:26

We could have done this over Zoom, but we made the drive over here and yeah.

Ann 26:29

Oh, well, it was tragic. I mean you don't want to see me on Zoom from my house, but Oh, all those chickens.

David 26:35

Well, they're not running around.

Ann 26:36

Well, dogs are over and they come in and howl and make all kinds of racket.

David 26:41

Sorry, I interrupted you.

Ann 26:42

Oh, that's all right. But I think the benefit to meeting in person is even stronger because it's so much done online and not in person, to actually meet in person is a stronger there's a stronger tie than ever.

Mick 26:57

That's good. That's that's well said. I I find that too. That that when you can make time or or someone has made the effort to actually go to the cafe and meet, it's it's a much easier, I guess, dynamic, at least from my perspective as an editor or working with someone, I'm sure as a as a writer interviewing someone, it's just easier in person. Yeah. But but we don't have that luxury so often. Yeah because we're working with people across the country. So where do you connect with is it conferences uh generally or well even talking on the phone is different? Okay.

Ann 27:29

So I was covering publishing in color. And Joyce Dinkins and I have met several times. She lives in South Haven.

David 27:38

It's a writer's uh association, a writer's conference, actually, yeah.

Ann 27:42

And it's all online, it's all a virtual conference. But when I said, could I register and can I sit in the on some sessions, she was surprised. Like, you would want to do that? I'm like, well, yeah. I couldn't do all of them, but I think that even that connection of being willing to participate in some way to learn from is a really big thing because so much of it is done virtually or just you know, and I'm not above sending email questions to for PW stories.

Mick 28:17

Sure.

Ann 28:18

Because editors don't have time to talk to me. They would much rather think through their responses and write something smart and helpful. And I don't have a problem with that. I mean, it's a it's a quick story, I need a couple quotes. That's okay. But boy, if I could meet them in person, that'd be fun. Or if I both we both had the time to talk.

Mick 28:41

Yeah. Maybe separate from actually interviewing for an article.

Ann 28:45

And meeting in person is leads to a lot of good connections for articles too.

Mick 28:51

Absolutely. Yeah. I need to remember that more. I'm just I'm not very good at it. I mean, as an editor, I'm somewhat shy and retiring it as it is. So having a podcast is a little strange. People are like, you have a podcast? Yeah.

David 29:02

And then they tell you they've listened to it. You're like, oh my God.

Mick 29:04

I'm like, shoot, don't listen. Um no. Never say that. I think it's important to like recognize just, yeah, social media can be both a bane of your existence and and a boon to like your your business. And and certainly it is. I know for Lake Drive, hyponymus, probably a little bit different as an as an agent, you know, having a you you have to have a presence of some type. And we've talked about this for authors before. You need you need to know uh enough people, basically, before you can have what you'd call a career. And I don't know what the right number is, but it's at least a a good, you know, a couple of handfuls of people who you could uh say, know you, know what you're about, know what your interests are. Maybe you've connected with them at different uh conferences over the years or something. But yeah, my my career didn't really begin as such until I'd been doing this for about eight to ten years. And I I try to tell people, you know, are you are you that kind of person you want to commit to this? Whether that's in the industry in terms of publishing and working on it as a business or a writer. Um there's marketers, there's publicists. I mean, you're you're talking about, you know, starting at a publisher, and that's the way I did too, and and learning how to then conduct yourself as a freelancer. Um that takes a while.

Ann 30:24

And I think newspaper is a whole different gig.

unknown 30:28

Yes.

Ann 30:28

And I I'm pretty sure that every editor, um, publishing professional author should work at a newspaper for a year because that will change you.

David 30:40

I mean, what like what, for example? Deadlines?

Ann 30:43

Deadlines like thick skin. I mean, I had people yell at me and I'm like edited.

David 30:47

Who who's yelling at you?

Ann 30:49

Well, my fellow copy editors. I mean, I I worked with a bunch of hooligans at the press.

David 30:53

Yelling at you about what?

Ann 30:54

I didn't like that headline you put, or I didn't like this, or don't edit my story, or blah, blah, blah, blah.

David 31:00

Okay, yeah.

Ann 31:01

So you learn about So going from Moody to the Grand Raptors Press was a teeny bit of a culture shock.

David 31:09

And then going everybody was really nice at Moody, probably.

Ann 31:12

Well, they faked, you know. They were really nice.

Speaker 2 31:15

They faked.

Ann 31:16

I mean, I didn't know. How would I know? I didn't know. And then to go from the press to to our daily bread, wow.

David 31:24

Sure. I was like culture shock again.

Ann 31:26

Now I gotta fake like I like everybody. Yeah. Because at the press, you just tell them I think you're a jerk. Yeah, you know, and they used to tease me all the time.

David 31:37

You almost have to get the content out quicker and in a pithier way. So it's almost fits the culture to be somewhat confrontive, you know. Oh, yeah, you get to the bottom line of the story here.

Ann 31:45

You can't be shy and retiring and work in a newsroom.

David 31:47

No nuance. Get get to the content.

Ann 31:50

And you you learn to move quickly, and you move learn to move decisively. You learn a thick skin.

David 31:55

It's dialectic, it's a dialogue dialogical process, yeah.

Ann 31:58

And you learn to just do the job. No, none of this, I don't really feel like it today.

Mick 32:04

Well, too bad. Sorry, it's your job. You gotta do it.

David 32:07

But of course, with newspapers, they're just don't exist anymore. Where do you see even a paper being delivered anywhere?

Ann 32:14

You know, well, you can if you want to pay six dollars to get one measly paper.

David 32:19

Washington Post just laid off 300 employees this week.

Ann 32:22

So everybody's getting their news online, which I'm not above reading, you know, not that I'm gonna pay for it. Yeah. So I missed the paywall a lot in the New York Times because I'm too cheap.

David 32:31

But do you know if the religion reporters at the Washington Post were laid off as well?

Ann 32:35

That I don't know.

David 32:36

Okay. Yeah.

Ann 32:39

Well, and PW is not laying off people.

Mick 32:44

So that's good, but they're all a few days. So we're good.

Ann 32:49

People leave and you know, there's a new news editor, and that's pretty routine, but I've not heard of any layoffs and anything like that. I think they run on a skeleton staff anyway. Yeah. And I only write for religion. That's a very small subset of everything else that they do.

David 33:06

Right. Maybe we should get to that a little bit. Um so you you don't write the book reviews.

Ann 33:13

I used to. You used to, yeah. And I can now still if I want to, but I don't. I do review for The Banner, which is the Christian Reformed Church publication and Englewood review of books. You do book reviews for them. Book reviews.

David 33:27

Okay. And but but for PW, you're you're you're writing a story like News and Features, yeah. News and features. So what are some recent examples?

Ann 33:38

Well, they just ran a story on the most read stories in 2025, and one of them was an interview I did with Jeanette Oak.

David 33:45

Oh, Janet Oak.

Ann 33:46

It was 90 something and had a new book come out.

David 33:49

The first most famous and first perhaps Amish fiction author.

Ann 33:53

Yeah. One of the one of the creators of the Christian fiction genre.

Speaker 2 33:57

Right.

Ann 33:57

And that was well read. I've done stories on um Realm Makers, which is the spec fiction writers conference. And that was very well read.

David 34:09

So I get to go that was had a religio a religious spec fiction.

Ann 34:12

Realm makers is Christian spec fiction.

David 34:14

Oh, that's right. I think I saw that article. That was a while back, right?

Ann 34:17

Well, I did that for PW and then I did a bigger one for Christianity today on the spec fiction world and then the Christian gaming world, which, you know, whole new world.

David 34:27

That's a thing.

Ann 34:28

I I don't I've never played a video game in my whole life, but I can write about it.

David 34:32

Do they have book publishers coming and exhibiting?

Ann 34:34

Oh yeah. Oh, sure they do. There you go.

David 34:37

Wow.

Ann 34:37

Well, I did guess, but not. It was in Grand Rapids last year. I can't believe you weren't there. Oh, yeah. Right. Exactly. It's in Memphis. Not Memphis, Nashville.

David 34:46

Is it a St. Louis this year. Is it a centrist, conservative, or progressive crowd, would you say?

Ann 34:52

They wear elf ears. They're whatever.

David 34:55

Oh, there you go. Unaffiliated.

Ann 34:58

Your Christian spec fiction.

David 35:01

That's fascinating.

Ann 35:02

Everything from teeny boppers wearing dragon earrings to full hobbit regalia. Yeah. To a lot of boba fett and a lot of Yoda.

Mick 35:14

I'd be I'd be Boba Fett. Yeah.

Ann 35:16

And a lot of, you know, crazy vampire. I don't know. Oh, yeah. So it's a whole new world.

David 35:24

Yeah.

Ann 35:25

And they're faith-based across the spectrum.

David 35:29

Yeah. That's the cool thing about writing for PW religion, I think, is you can you the the what you part of your job is to be able to look at the trends and to think about the trends and try to anticipate the trends. Phyllis Tickle was really good at that. Yes. Did you work directly with her ever? Oh okay.

Ann 35:49

I never did. And right now I'm going to work on a dual-time novel trend piece.

Speaker 2 35:54

Ooh.

Ann 35:55

And dual time has been out a long time, but now really well-known Christian fiction authors are doing it. I'm reading one right now by um Lynn Austin.

David 36:05

Okay.

Ann 36:06

Who um she's doing dual time. So that's kind of a trend, is this jump back and forth in time. Catherine Ray's done it numerous times through Harper Mews, and Jamie, um Jamie Joe Wright sometimes will do it, and miscellaneous other ones. So there's a trend is this influence in dual time. I did a piece on rom coms. Those were those are hugely popular right now in the general market, but also more in the Christian market.

Mick 36:31

Um yeah. Several of my famous or famous favorite authors. Uh I think of like Susan Meisner had uh Shape of Mercy, I think was the name of it.

Ann 36:44

Does she cross General Market and Faith Market?

Mick 36:46

She she came from Faith Market. She was at uh Harper not Harper, uh Harvest House for a while. Um yeah, Waterbrook was uh Shape of Mercy. But now I think she's either Valentine or A.

David 37:01

Oh, moved to move to the wider world.

Ann 37:04

And Lisa Wingate did the same thing.

Mick 37:05

Same thing, right.

Ann 37:06

Christian market for a while, now back to the general market. Uh-huh.

Mick 37:09

Which I don't know if that's a trend. I mean, that's been going on a while. It can go the other way too, obviously. Redeeming love is a famous uh example.

Ann 37:17

Which if people were to really get tied in a knot about Christian fiction, why is that still a bestseller?

David 37:24

Right.

Ann 37:24

Because don't be offended about kissing in a book if you've read Redeeming Love.

David 37:29

Oh.

Ann 37:30

Because, you know, okay.

David 37:31

Wait, people get offended about kissing in a romance novel in the Christian marketplace? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a deep. I I knew the answer to that, but I just had to say it.

Ann 37:39

And it's a broad spectrum, you know, from we can't do anything but fall in love and worship Jesus to let's do everything but the main event.

Mick 37:51

Yeah. And then most books are kind of hand-holding and leading up to a kiss at the end or something.

David 37:55

Of the Amish authors, who's the sauciest, would you say? Do you know? Do you have any opinion on that? Jeanette Oak, probably not. Not Jeanette. Beverly Lewis? No. Uh certainly not.

Ann 38:05

Suzanne Woods Fisher does some Amish. What I've noticed is that the really good ones stay. All the other ones who jumped on the trend are gone now. Oh Wanda Brunsteadder, but she's she would not be saucy.

David 38:18

It's actually a really hard business from a business model point of view. Oh, yeah. Because it when the Christian bookstores were were significantly reduced, that that meant a lot of the fiction uh mechanism for distributing and marketing fiction in a way. Yeah.

Ann 38:34

And some you knew just jumped on it because and I I was like, I'm not even reading that. I'm not even gonna look at that because I know it's just because it's popular and you shouldn't be writing it. Yeah. But the the good ones have stayed, and now it's much less because how many Amish stores can you write?

Mick 38:50

Yeah. That is always my question. How many of these can we possibly have?

Ann 38:54

And yet the covers they're all beautiful. Still more coming. The covers are all such beautiful women.

Mick 39:00

I think Amish women are all beautiful, obviously.

Ann 39:04

I mean, you know, not the ones I saw in real life.

Mick 39:08

We're not allowed to say that. No.

David 39:09

Um well, they're just plain. They're plain.

Mick 39:12

Yeah. Yeah. Bonnet doesn't hide beauty. Come on. Uh yeah. Where where have we gotten here? Uh we we're talking about publishing disrupted. Sorry.

David 39:23

It's okay. Well, it's fun. We're expanding. I could get into this. I have my own theories about why Amish fiction's been so successful too, like from a cultural standpoint. Well, I think it's kind of a it's a way of telling stories about breaking out of restrictive faith communities. That's why we fantasize because they're in the restrictive community and there's women breaking out of it. At least that's sort of the promise of those stories. A lot of them.

Ann 39:46

In the early years, though, Valerie Weaver Zerker, who now works for Broadleaf, wrote a book called The Thrill of the Chaste. It was more of an academic title, and part of it was a backlash to technology.

David 39:57

Interesting.

Ann 39:58

Because people wanted a simpler life. Sure.

David 40:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Ann 40:02

And the Amish offered that.

Mick 40:04

Yeah, yeah. The thrill of the chaste. Cool. That's still a thing. I mean, that's still a definite draw for a lot of people.

Ann 40:08

Well, I think that's where historical romance comes in, historical novels. You just want something where you're not constantly on your iPad.

David 40:15

Right.

Ann 40:16

Right. In the book.

David 40:18

Let's let's talk, let's get back to your book a little bit. I would I would love to know like what like let's get back to that word connection a little bit, but I also want to hear about what what is the main idea of the of of creativity in this book? What's your what's your take on creativity? Maybe that's more interesting to talk about. I love that.

Ann 40:34

Well, I think everyone is creative in their own ways. And some people will say, Oh, I'm not creative. But then they'll go create the most beautiful lasagna you've ever seen. And they are creative. Everyone is creative in their own way. Whether it's you're an atomic scientist or you're discovering a new comet or something, you have to be creative. And it's about thinking outside the box. So for chicken scratch, I interviewed everyone from a Swiss Guard member who was a chef for the popes, because the Swiss Guard protects the Pope. And so this guy was a chef. Wow. That's pretty creative.

David 41:14

That's very cool.

Ann 41:15

And I learned to do some creative things, but people think, you know, I learned to decorate a cake. My cakes were always remedial, my poor kids. They were just like, oh, what a weird color, Mom. And my nieces all had these gorgeous cakes made by their grandma, like dolphins leaping out of waves. But dolphins. It's seriously. But that's creative to be able to do that. Surgeries, you know, heart, heart doctors are creative. We're all creative in our own ways. But what is the real, what does it take to harness that creativity? It takes courage to face it. It takes um ability to um get over the hen pecking to use a chicken metaphor, is to just do it. And don't who cares what anybody says? You do your thing. So that's where creativity comes in, is we we all are creative. And how do you tap into that? So right now I'm into paper crafting, which I did for chicken scratch, one of the five things. That's the one that stuck.

David 42:22

So but why title it chicken scratch? How'd that connect to the content?

Ann 42:26

Well, that's because the editor um liked that title. She came to me, she said, Hey Ann. Um, because I was putting putting my chickens on Instagram, right? Because I'd be writing out on my deck, and this chicken would come and peer over my computer. So I started watching them, and they were just craziness. And so I put them on Instagram and she saw them. And this is a person I knew. I'd interviewed her several times. I'd had been to Boston, had lunch with her, and she's like, Hey, would you write a book called Chicken Scratch? I said, Okay, because chickens scratch. Now, were I to get the rights back to this book, I would probably re-release it with a different title.

Speaker 2 43:06

Oh.

Ann 43:06

I like the subtitle and I like the title.

David 43:09

Yeah.

Ann 43:10

But I think it can go beyond chickens.

David 43:12

Yeah. Sure.

Ann 43:13

Um, but title like what? I don't know, something to do with creativity. I'm trying to get you going here. Yeah. Yeah. So I love this book. I love the way it looks. They did such a beautiful job on the insides with the little chickens with glasses. Great little hardcover.

Speaker 2 43:30

Yeah.

Ann 43:30

Check it out. And it's really um but that's about connection. She saw my pictures on Instagram, contacted me, said, Hey, would you write this book? I write the book proposal. She changes it from writers to creatives, and here we are. And she calls me one day and she says, So, Ann, about that book. I said, You really want to publish it? I'm I'm as surprised as anyone. She's like, Uh, yeah. And here's an advance. So that's how that came to be. And it was such fun to interview from Pi. On the West Coast to a woman who marketing.

David 44:06

How did you find these people? Like what mental process did you go through? Okay.

Ann 44:10

There it is again. Is authors that I was interviewing. I asked friends, do they know anybody? My editor at PW was good friends with the pie making lady, connected me with her. Authors I was interviewing.

David 44:29

Yeah.

Ann 44:29

And I read books by chicken writers. There's all kinds of chicken books out there. Like they write about chickens. That's awesome. Some you know, some didn't. Some didn't participate and some did.

Mick 44:40

But you just found the people who who were interested. And yeah.

Ann 44:43

And as my kids will tell you, I have no problem talking to people I don't know. That's great. And so that's where I think a newspaper background comes in. You just can't you can't be fearful. You just gotta do it. They can always say no.

Mick 44:56

Well, and I find like playing a role often helps. If you have a purpose, if you have some questions, your your natural interest in that person generally is what you're going off of. I mean, you know, and that's not able to be faked. You you have to feel that sincerely.

Ann 45:12

And people like to talk about what they love.

Mick 45:14

There you go. I'd love to hear about it. Especially if they're being creative about it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Coming from a quieter disposition, I often will just, oh well, they don't need me bothering them, or I don't really, you know, it's just a question I have. Maybe I'll ask them offline or whatever. But like to actually, you know, be more assertive in that way, I think is an important skill for people.

Ann 45:35

And sometimes I have to gird myself up for it, you know. Like some days I just think I can't talk to anybody new today. I just need to read Jack Reacher or something.

Mick 45:45

And sometimes that's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Ann 45:47

And other days I'm like, okay, let's go for it. And off we go.

David 45:52

So you mentioned social media was a bane of your existence with this book, but what what were some of your biggest frustrations? Um, in like what what did you enjoy the most? Was it was it make was it making more friends through the book? And I loved frustration.

Ann 46:06

Um the interviews, I loved putting the book together. So that was huge fun to me. I was not worried about a deadline. It didn't, I wasn't paralyzed, you know, curled up in a fetal position, sobbing. I never had any of that.

David 46:20

Um but I'm also writers, that is partly the experience of writing sometimes, isn't it?

Ann 46:25

I mean there. Yeah. But I'm used to I have a well-developed deadline muscle and a well-developed interview muscle from those years working at the newspaper, I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 2 46:39

Yeah.

Ann 46:40

But I'm also a seven on the Enneagram, as a lot of freelancers are. So big party. Well, the book comes out, I do all the stuff, and then I'm on to the next party. Sure. It's I I have a little more hard time long term. Yeah.

David 46:55

Still talking about the book. Right. I can make a me do right now.

Ann 46:58

Like, you know, I've got 17 things to talk about, more people to interview, and more articles to write. And so that has been a little bit has been way harder for me, is is the long tail. I think the book has a long tail. Yeah. Whether I have the long tail, I have to really have to keep up with it.

David 47:17

Do chickens have tails? Yes, they do.

Ann 47:19

They do. Yeah. Our dog, who was trained as a puppy not to hurt the chickens, would put one under her paw and pull out the tail of the feathers.

Mick 47:28

Yeah.

Ann 47:29

Oh. We would be like, no, no kill. Just pull out the tail feathers. So yes.

David 47:34

So just continuing to talk about it. Um, sometimes it's whether it can be connected to your day job or not, too. Right. That's one of the things I often say to authors is what is your day job and how can you make a connection between this work and your day job? Because that's gonna that's what's gonna matter. That's where that's where the rubber's gonna meet the road, so to speak, with with long-term sales. Fit it into what you already do.

Ann 47:56

Right. Yeah. And I think it is about creativity because nobody's not so many people talk about that. So if I talk about creativity at ACFW in a conference that's Christian fiction writers conference, yeah. American Christian fiction writers, right. Um, they're getting a lot of things on very specific aspects of writing. Right.

Mick 48:18

And not just writing necessarily.

Ann 48:19

And this is a bigger, this is an overview. How do you how do you tap into your creativity? Because some of them are long term and they've they're done, they they're tired, they don't have any more ideas. Some of them are new, and how do you harness it? So that's where I think Chicken Scratch will do well, is in that way. And that's why I wonder about a different title than Chicken Scratch.

Mick 48:41

Sure.

Ann 48:42

And it was great to begin with.

Mick 48:44

Right. Even as you approach it in this future iteration, it's just becoming more clear that it's it's about creativity and the many ways you connect to that.

David 48:52

So really valuable book, I imagine. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I read it. What am I saying? I endorsed it. So yeah, yeah. Nice. So so what about what's creative for you going forward? You you know, you have your usual gigs, but what do you creatively for you want to do going forward, writing or not, or whatever, writing, hopefully.

Ann 49:11

Well, I've like you, Mick, have started some book coaching. Yeah. Which is creative in its own way because it's really therapy.

Mick 49:20

Right, it is. Yes. And we're not therapists.

David 49:23

Therapy for you or therapy for the um therapy for the author.

Ann 49:26

So I always ask, what are you afraid of? And so I enjoy that. Um, my own work going forward, I do have a book that I need to get to a publisher who's even asked for it, and I'm fiddled, as my brother would say, fiddle crapping around and not doing it on elder care. Oh. Because this is what I've been done for the last three years. And it's not about how to do elder care. There's a million books on that. It's what we learn as caregivers. Oh, human beings. As what it what did I learn in dealing with my elderly parents? Yeah. And so getting essays from a whole bunch of people on that topic. Wow. Oh, wow. Because we've all learned. I mean, my friend Tracy learned that her dad, while stubborn and mule-headed, wanted to care for her mother because he was a he had been a hero his whole life as a sheriff, uh sheriff's deputy. So he was only being the hero he'd always been while also being stubborn and not getting the care. But it helped her to understand that about him. And so that's the kind of thing we want to do is what do we learn as children or as caregivers that taught us something? So I need to get busy on that. And I'm actually going to Grenada on Saturday for a writing retreat.

David 50:56

Oh, I remember you mentioning this before. Yeah.

Ann 50:58

Yeah. I started packing. So I want to work on that then. And for how many days? A week.

David 51:04

Yeah. Wow.

Ann 51:05

And uh I've got two ghostwriting gigs going on and working on that.

David 51:11

And I also book book length ghost ghostwriting gigs. Wow. Two of them. Wow.

Ann 51:16

Which fiction, nonfiction, nonfiction.

David 51:19

Nonfiction, obviously. Yeah.

Ann 51:20

Yeah.

Mick 51:20

But yeah, that's the work.

Ann 51:21

Yeah, that's the work. Yep. Yeah. And you know, they have a vested interest in their book putting out. And uh and I think years of experience teach you not to take it personally.

Speaker 2 51:33

Yeah.

Ann 51:34

Not to own all of this with all my emotions. I'm like, it's your book. It's right.

Mick 51:41

It's a product at the end of the day. Yes. It's gotta work for everybody. Yeah.

Ann 51:44

Yeah. And then um still doing the articles for PW and Grand Rapids Magazine. I'm gonna do one for the magazine on dogs in healthcare.

Speaker 2 51:54

Oh. Nice.

Ann 51:55

Which I talked to a guy in my church during the meet and greet, you know, meet and greet everybody, and he he works for Corwell, and they use dogs in their security. So I thought, you know, yeah, you can always do therapy dogs. Right. But dogs, animals are used much more often in healthcare. So that'll be fun. Yeah, what's that life like? That's good. Yeah, and and what are the dogs actually doing? Yeah. Right. So that'll be fun. And uh, you know, doing pieces for PW. So I have plenty to do.

David 52:26

Yeah, that's amazing.

Ann 52:27

It's it's fun. I like the variety.

Mick 52:29

It keeps it interesting, and I think that's the the thing I like about editing as well. It's much more diverse than you realize. You think, oh, I'm just working on books the same thing all the time, but it's never the same thing. They're never the same book, they're never the same author.

Ann 52:43

Never the same topic, never the same style. Yeah. And you get to learn stuff.

Mick 52:48

Right. And it's just endlessly sort of it's never repetitive. I guess that's what's interesting to me is that you would think anyone looking in from the outside would think, well, that's that's so repetitive. Or, you know, maybe they're just not book people, and oh, I I don't read books. But like if if you're into it, if you like books, there's no end to the fun and the creativity that you can have.

Ann 53:11

What kind of books do you edit? Are you doing a macro editing? Okay.

Mick 53:16

I do I do mostly nonfiction. I've done some ghostwriting. Um, I I coach uh both fiction and nonfiction. I've got a middle grade um sort of fantastic story about a marmoset monkey right now. So I mean it's it's just whatever comes in the way. And yeah, it's it's usually reference. I was gonna say it's connection, isn't it? Yes, always. Um I've been on Readsy, I'm not a fan. I I know I'll get some hate for this, but like, you know, I find the best projects, at least for me, come from a recommendation from someone that I know or they know me, and they say, Hey, you should work with Mick, and then they give them some of what I've done before, and then I'm I'm coming in and they already know who I am.

Ann 54:04

I have three jobs all from recommendations, one coaching, one editing, one one um ghostwriting. Nice. All from recommendations. And I've sure started the process of with Readsy. Okay, but I haven't gotten I just haven't had time to finish the thing.

Mick 54:20

It was kind of a headache for me. I got like a hundred requests or something, and none of them worked. I mean, I'm not kidding. It was that many. And I finally just took it down. It's it's suspended right now. But uh yeah, it it works probably for some people who are willing to do the slog. I I've been around a little while and I I think I got more specific. I I'm looking for authors who really want to work, I guess.

David 54:43

Somehow being in a world of recommendations is that is where there's more human connections. There's more it in a way, it kind of helps filter things. It helps filter content areas, totally um experience levels, um you know, it's just the these are sort of unwritten, you know, intangibles that that matter so much that you can't get when you're up on an online service.

Mick 55:07

That's right. And and in books, I've I've always maintained that it it is a deeper art than even, you know, I'd say television writing, film writing, I mean any kind of screenwriting, it it requires more of your brain just to write it. Um there's just there's more going on in a book, typically, than than are what you're seeing on the page. So that's why a community is so necessary. And I think I mean that's that's the note I'd love to end on, is is this idea of community and that we're all a part of it. Whether we, you know, have done this ever before, I mean, this is the first time we've all sat down together, but we've known of each other, we've been in in each other's circles for a long time. Um and I know that that will continue with all of the people that I've talked about.

David 55:50

We've talked about being a good human, is like what that's one of the qualities we like most about an author. And you you're being a good human by just being willing and able to talk to people in any context and situation.

Mick 56:00

And a great representative. That builds connections.

David 56:02

Yep. That's the heat.

Ann 56:03

It is connection and community and being a decent human and keeps those ties strong.

David 56:12

Even if it means yelling about headlines sometimes.

Ann 56:14

Yeah, yeah. Because when I left the press or just taking a break.

Mick 56:19

Yeah. You know, if yeah.

Ann 56:20

I mean, if I had left the press poorly, I would never have been freelancing for them. If I had left Moody Press poorly, would Jerry Jenkins have been willing to talk to me through the years? No.

Speaker 2 56:31

Yeah.

Ann 56:32

So it's it's community, it's connection, it's being a good literary citizen, being a good human. I love to write stories about people I don't know, things that I don't know about and eager to learn about, and I think that's part of the connection.

Mick 56:46

Yeah. Yeah. Don't speak ill of people. Uh often I will speak ill of you know decisions and results of those decisions. And we we've done our share of that already. We'll do more. Critique is still important. Critique is important, and I think there's a dearth of it in Christian spaces. So I I think it's doing a service. But um, yeah, no, thank you for being here. I really been an honor. Thank you.

David 57:09

Yeah, I hope you do it again. Where can people find you? Anbile.com and biowriter.com. Anbilewriter.com. Anbile B-Y-L-E.com. Get her book Chicken Scratch, watch for her feature articles in PW. You can get the religion bookline free newsletter free if you go onto the PW site and you search around for their newsletters, and you're sometimes in that. Yeah.

Ann 57:31

Oh, yeah, that's who that's what I write for primarily, not print. And it's every other week on a Wednesday. Yeah.

Mick 57:38

Yeah, I always check it out. I think it's very important for people to stay connected too. So thank you. Thanks again.

Ann 57:44

You're most welcome. It's been enjoyable.

Mick 57:45

Yeah. Yeah. We'll uh we'll catch you all next time. Thanks for being here, everybody.