Where We're Coming From: Our Faith Disruptions

As snow falls outside the window in Grand Rapids we decided it was finally time to share how our personal faith journeys have been disrupted and how that's affected our deep engagement with the material we edit, represent, and publish.

As former Christian publishing professionals, we once assented to certain beliefs. But we currently land in a very different place. And we know we’re not alone.

Whether your faith disruption is minor or you've identified some religious trauma, we hope you'll feel welcome to explore this topic with us and recognize something of yourself in this growing community of misfits we work with and publish for. 

If you've stepped away from organized religion, the shift is personal and profound. But leaving one community shouldn't mean losing community entirely. Amidst our shifting identities (and judgment from others), writing and reading new books helps us more deeply appreciate unanswered questions and develop critical thinking.

If you recognize the strength in a diversity of voices, perspectives, and experiences and want to go deeper together, we hope you'll come along.

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

Mick 0:00

Hey everybody, uh welcome back to Publishing Disrupted. Uh I am Mick Silva.

David 0:06

And I'm David Morris, literary agent and publisher.

Mick 0:08

All right. I'm an editor.

David 0:10

That's right. You are.

Mick 0:11

Yes. And I'm a freelance editor now. Uh. we are talking about disruption in publishing and uh exploring the ways in which book publishing is changing and how writers can best meet that challenge. Uh we had been talking beforehand about a little bit what we want to talk about in this new year, and um we missed last week because of the snow. It's currently snowing again. You can see out the window.

David 0:32

Yeah, the weather has-- I don't like talking about weather all the time, but man, it's just it's ridiculous in Grand Rapids. We got, we get lake effect snow here.

Mick 0:40

Yes. People don't know what that means.

David 0:42

Yeah. But we -- what happens, what the pattern has been, is that we get a storm and it'll dump like anywhere from like one to four inches, maybe more sometimes. Yeah. And then when it blows out, there's cold air behind it and it picks up the moisture from the unfrozen Lake Michigan. So you get a bonus. And then it I mean it dumps it, yeah, it dumps it uh on the on the shores, the shore towns more than us. But man.

Mick 1:05

We're about 30 minutes from the lake shore, but it still hits us. Yeah. And like right now, I don't think it was supposed to snow this much today, but it is.

David 1:13

And the ridiculous thing is that like this is Lake Michigan that's snowing on us right now, and then we shovel it and then it melts and goes back into the lake, and then it just comes right back on us.

Mick 1:23

Like endless. Well, I don't know how you're feeling, but m y arms are very shore, sore from shore l ake snow right now. Yeah. Yeah, I could do without talking about it. Um well, but similarly, like with this faith with disruption stuff, sometimes it feels like I don't want to talk about it. So we we had said beforehand, like let's just share some about our own faith background and and journeys, I guess, and maybe where we are. Um I don't really know where I am, but I guess I can talk about that and try to connect it to publishing.

David 1:54

Exactly.

Mick 1:55

Like why we say we're former, two former pro professionals in the Christian publishing space. Um like we're learning to navigate this new market, but at the same time, and we've always just sort of like quickly uh sidelined this conversation, but like we're also like disrupted in our own uh faith journeys and and as as people not going to church anymore. Like that's a big deal from where we come from. Um, that was a big decision for my wife and I, and I know you guys too.

David 2:26

Um and you know, if I could just stop for a second just to set it up a little bit more. I I think as publishing professionals, you you are you really you are engaged with your content no matter what you're doing, no matter what genre you're in. You are somehow emotionally, psychologically, sociologically engaged with your content. It's not a it's not a blank slate. You're not a blank slate.

Mick 2:49

Right.

David 2:50

You put yourself into it, it's an interaction, it's a relationship. That's especially true, perhaps, if it's spiritual slash religious publishing, which is what we do not, which is what we specialize in. So talking about our faith journeys, I think, is absolutely relevant for that's good, for this, for this uh podcast. Right. And if we can if we cannot go down all the rabbit holes.

Mick 3:11

Well, and and yeah, I need to try to stay on topic because a lot of times, you know, it will divide digress into like emotionalism and stuff. Not that I want to be all logical about it, because clearly, I mean, you're talking about God, and so how do you be logical about that? Yeah, but like just to set up the topic, I mean, faith disruption. There has been a lot of this talk.

David 3:32

Yes, absolutely.

Mick 3:33

You know, everybody, I think if you're an American, and you make this point well, um, you have to deal with it. You have to see it. Like it's it's in your face, right? There's there, like if you're a progressive, even if you're called a progressive, it's just like that's terrible. That that can be the kiss of death in in certain circles, like especially where we were coming from.

David 3:52

Which should tell you something, but go ahead.

Mick 3:54

Right. Like they don't even know necessarily what they're talking about, but you know, they're gonna slap a label on you. Um, and then like deconstruction in general, like what that means in terms of faith. Uh deconstructing from your traditional viewpoint of faith. Um, and I and I think we both would would admit that we have been doing that. Uh, we are both long time, like as pastors' kids growing up, um, we are both longtime believers. And so some of the deconstruction that's more recent doesn't feel relevant to me because I've been doing that my whole life. I've said before, I I don't feel like I ever was fully in the camp.

David 4:32

Yeah, and let's get, let's make sure we can bring that up as we go along. Sure. Yeah.

Mick 4:36

So so some of the background on this, I think um the Global Center for Religious Resource or um religion was saying like there's basically one in three people are are going through a faith disruption or would characterize what they're experiencing as religious trauma. Um there they're uh a study group, and I mean, clearly, of course, my uh computer is restarting right now for my notes, but um what what I have basically figured out already is that there's a lot of people who are who are dealing with this. And so I'd like to explore that. And that's part of the reason for this podcast to talk about books and how we do that because coming from the the professional space we have.

David 5:20

The numbers are definitely there. Um, you know, whether you want to look at things anecdotally that you know, people just don't go to church as much as they used to, for one thing. Right. And then and then, you know, how do they affiliate? There's stuff there's studies that ask that question, what's your affiliation? Now, of course, that can be problematic sometimes because how does how does a label define someone spiritually? It's tricky, but 40% as much as uh like easily a third. I'm I'm not looking at the Pew data myself, but look at the Pew landscape survey that's been updated over the over the decades, and it's it's a big number. And it's growing. That's the the Yeah. It's the growth slowed some, but the even the Pew people say it's gonna continue to grow. Right.

Mick 6:08

Um and this includes people who are are self-identifying as either deconstructing, no longer believing the way they did.

David 6:17

Right. They call themselves the they they're non-affiliated or they're Pew calls them the nuns right N-O-N-E-S. Yeah.

Mick 6:25

No longer affiliated with religion.

David 6:27

But I mean, even people in most religious circles have heard the phrase faith deconstruction at this point. There's ex-evangelical, there's post-evangelical. Um these are these are new uh uh uh terms that perhaps even represent evolutions going on from even like when it used to just be progressive or mainline. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean it's it's just undeniable what the the change that's going on. Right. Um it's not as fast for some, it's too fast for others. Right. And everybody's on a spectrum with it too.

Mick 7:04

Well exactly, it's a very personal thing. And uh you can continuum, you can say that you know this this causes some um some unrest, some disruption, right? Yeah. I would even say uh suffering, suffering from symptoms of religious trauma. And and what's difficult about that suffering is it's largely invisible and you can't point at it. There's not bruises, right? Right? The bruises are on your soul. And in as much as you talk about like physical trauma, yeah, and then emotional trauma, those are are increasingly like they well, they're easier to identify now, but it's still very difficult to identify what is religious trauma, yeah, and and how do you even identify it in your own life. Right. So you need books. You need you need people to understand this. Absolutely. We're here to talk about books. You need you need people who have studied this. Yeah, you can't just have someone on Instagram saying this is what religious trauma means. Um, I think that's what's difficult for me is it a lot of the talk around it sometimes is not helpful. I I can dismiss a lot of that, and I can see why uh a lot of people um coming from the traditional mindset or more conservative mindset might say, well, deconstruction is just it's all out to lunch. It's not it's not real. Yeah, people are just making it up. Well, but if you just drill down into the some some of the data and some of the like actual experiences of people, there is real suffering that's happening. We just don't see it. Right. And and maybe you don't identify with it. But the people who do identify with it, it's it's a real thing. And there's a lot of sources from it. I mean, obviously, there's people who you come in contact with, hypocritical Christians. I mean, that's a big one for both of us, friends and family deconstructing, uh, maybe political figures.

David 8:45

We talk about the news recently, and it's like it's hard not to see some of you know what's coming out of the right, especially the disconnect between what we were raised they're saying one thing, the values we were raised with, and then what's I mean, it's just the disconnect couldn't be more obvious between what we were the values we were raised on as preachers' kids, and how how many of how we're seeing that play out. How many of the preachers are abdicating those values, pretending they don't exist or pretty when it comes to politics, right?

Mick 9:16

Teaching something else. So and then there's just uh like media, obviously books, social media, articles, films.

David 9:22

March of science, TV, yeah. Yeah.

Mick 9:25

Yeah, exactly. Like science uh discoveries and research. Um, there's just personal disappointments, unhealed traumas from your past that come back, and you're like, well, why did that happen? I need to investigate this. And this is part of the the process, right? So a lot of those sources, yeah, go ahead.

David 9:41

Can I jump in? I I think that it's important to to remember that there's there are often wider forces at play that we don't see. You know, we we we Americans can be pretty ahistorical, we can be pretty self-focused, self-centered. Um, and I mean that in the good sense of the word, but it can also be a very bad thing. It is often. Um, but um uh you know, w without a doubt, like what's happening in in America with nationalism and populism isn't unique. It's happening across the globe. Definitely. And you you've got to, you know, you've got to think about okay, well, why is that happening? I mean, America, we have, I think, probably a certain version of it, perhaps the most intense version that's scaled also. Um but I think that you know, one one very strong theory this is not something I'm an expert on in terms of listing them all, but one very strong theory has to be globalism, right? Meaning that we are not uh a planet of just individual nations that just operate independently of each other, we're highly interdependent and we're stronger when we're interdependent. And I think that um that that reality i as it closes, as it as it develops, also means that it challenges our identities. Right. And when people's identities are challenged, their language, the what they wear, the the things that they're interested in, the traditions they have, when those things are not you know um homogenous, it's it's psychologically difficult. Right.

unknown 11:23

Right.

David 11:23

And I think what we see right now on a global scale is a lot of people feeling fear, feeling instability, and acting out on it. Um now that doesn't explain a lot of a lot of horrible things that are going on in this world, but I think it does explain some of the really big disconnect, especially psychologically in the United States. Yeah. It's a very unconscious thing. You can't reason with with folks who are acting out of fear in the way that they are these days. Right. Right.

Mick 11:54

And voting for a because you're taking away their identity. You're taking away a foundational block in in who they are.

David 12:01

Right, right. I think I think that's very much what's happening. And I think if we can look at it that way, if we can try to see some of these bigger reasons why it's happening, it kind of takes a little bit of the um you know emotion out of it and amps things down and say, what why are we struggling here?

Mick 12:16

Yeah, look at it from outside of your emotional experience. Right. Yeah, and and that's largely what I I think a book can help you do. So it slows you down. I I tell people all the time, like part of the the reason I became a book editor was because, you know, I I had started in film and thinking about going into movies. It it it ended up scaring me because I was I wanted to move slower. I wanted to to think rationally about things, get away from some of the emotional baggage that I was given. Right. And and take my time with ideas, you know, not be forced into this uh production schedule. Now, I went into publishing and learned that there is a production schedule that you're forced to consider, and largely the content is not as important in the business world as you'd like it to be. So I became a freelancer, but um, to talk about some of the results of this, I guess, religious trauma. Um discomfort triggering from certain people and practices like uh prayer and Bible reading. I mean, obviously those those things can be really difficult to encounter again, um, engaging in Christian activities like ministry, church services, worship music, sermons, church in general. Um, these can be triggering. Ch changes in how we live and and what we do. I mean, obviously that's what's gonna happen when you have some religious trauma that you're trying to identify, who we interact with, ultimately our community. And then I think what's relevant mostly to us is what we read. Because all of this, I mean, I've I've enjoyed so much of the discussion, but all of the material that I'm seeing come out in terms of the deconstruction from uh religious uh training and orientation, it it ends up being either disappointing or affirming, and sometimes both, right? It's disappointing in the fact that it doesn't quite characterize my experience personally. It's it's applicable to some degree and it's helpful maybe, right, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Right. And I think what we're looking at, rather than using a book to maybe solve a problem, is to give people tools, resources to then think about their own journeys and then take that into their community. And one thing we've talked about with authors is really exciting that you can find this new community when you publish, when you write a book, when you look especially at a the independent market. This is even true in in traditional market. I mean, obviously you're finding your tribe, but if you can find, you know, a number of people, we've said a thousand true fans. Uh, you can find those people, you're gonna have a new community. Yeah. And and whether you treat it that way or as your new church or not, doesn't matter because it's giving you the kind of resourcing that you need.

David 14:56

So you're saying that book publishing is is one way to find community. Absolutely. That you might be not otherwise that you might not otherwise have.

Mick 15:06

And let's identify that. Let's talk about that. What does that actually mean? I mean, is that healthy or is that not healthy? I think a lot of people who are stuck in the traditional model would say, well, that's not good, that's not valid. You can't find your community and your your your tribe of people that that are basically uh acolytes, you know, people who are followers. Like they're not your contemporaries, and but they are.

David 15:29

But your tribe is more than just your followers, it's your it's your colleagues and your contemporaries and your cronies. It's it's um other authors, for example.

Mick 15:38

Other authors, editors, some people who are are further along in their path than you, and some who who are less far along. I mean, right. We're not doing any formal mentoring here or small groups or or you know, maybe uh programmatic like training, but we are having these discussions. Right.

David 15:58

We've talked about community some before, and I think what you're getting at is a little bit is um anyway, is um you know, that you can find sacred community in more than one kind of setting. Right. And that's that's largely our a lot of our issue. Right. It's like when people talk about religion in the United States, they often use words that are connected to belief. They overlook ritual, they overlook they often overlook community. They talk about community more as the as by default, right? Like you got to believe a certain thing to be part of the community, and when you don't believe that thing, you're no longer part of that community. Exactly. Well, if that was a community, if that's a belief-based community, that really wasn't very much community. It doesn't feel very it wasn't very the healthy community, it doesn't feel very strong, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So so you know what what about um having an author community is is sacred, is spiritual. Absolutely.

Mick 16:47

That's there. And and actually has more glue to it, actually has more connection points. Because because it's based in the kind of autonomy, agency, authenticity that maybe you didn't have in a church community. I tell people all the time if maybe you were going to church too much, you would not necessarily be even open to such a relationship because you already gave at the office. You know what I'm not gonna do here.

David 17:14

Yeah. So we've kind of we've kind of actually even skipped to the end here on talking about this. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit.

Mick 17:20

Right.

David 17:20

I want to go back. I'm not trying to stop. I'm just trying to say I think it's interesting, it's there.

Mick 17:24

It's because I get dis you know, that discomfort comes up for me. It's like, oh no, now I just talk about my actual face.

David 17:30

Oh, oh, I see. It's an avoidance tactic. It is.

Mick 17:32

Let's talk about positive things as a way of avoiding the negative things. Because, like, yes, absolutely. Maybe maybe we I wasn't accusing you of that. That's no, no, I know. I I'm accusing myself here because I do it all the time. It's a little sleight of hand thing. Me too. Um, as an editor, you're not supposed to import your own point of view, you're supposed to support the writer's vision. Oh, yeah. Well, it doesn't know it doesn't usually work all the time. I use that in my relationship with my wife. It's not even fair. Yeah.

David 17:57

But um it's like psychologists saying that they're not supposed to insert themselves into the relationship, and it's just you already have being in the room.

Mick 18:04

Even by just asking your boring little question, tell me more about that. Yeah. Um but yeah, what's what's personally interesting, I guess, for for both of us is I guess the way our stories connect to what it is we do for a living and how our careers have sort of gone on this parallel journey with our own, I guess, if you will, deconstruction from the more conservative Christian religious space. Right. Um, so I guess if we're going to share our own faith journeys, our own um disruption journeys, faith disruption as a topic, even religious trauma, would you have characterized? I'm gonna put you on the spot first. That's fine, yeah. Share mine, but would you characterize your own, I guess, faith disruption um, let's say within the last 10 years, as religious trauma? Would you say that you've experienced some religious trauma?

David 19:01

Oh, um, I would say Is that more in your early years? Uh yeah. Well, first off, I don't think I had as big of a dose as some so many people. Okay. I'll put it that way. I did, but I and I think there is systemic trauma going on. There isn't like one isolated incident or one particular person, although there can be. Yeah. And there are there are. Um but so yeah, I think I think it's mostly just um you know, I mean I've I've if if anybody knows me, I talk about this a lot, that you know, the the thing that so many of us go through when we're almost school age, about five, where we're asked to say the sinner's prayer. Um you know, that's and and sort of take on the existential breadth and depth of a concept of hell. Um when you're just a effing little kid, you know, and you you're just trying to play and have fun and and learn about the world and someone's telling you you might go to hell unless you pray these magic words.

Mick 20:00

Don't you realize what a sinner you are?

David 20:01

I mean, psychologists talk about that as precocious identity formation. They talk about it as a foreclosure of your personality. And I think, I think in that sense, so many of us are struggling with that trauma of being asked to be something that we're not. It's sort of like um purity culture. Yeah. You know, you're asked to repress something that's actually a natural part of who you are. Sure. Um, and uh, you know, that's gonna have lifelong effects for you. Yeah. Um, especially if you've done that, if you had to do that developmentally. Um so yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, I I would say though, it's you know, for me, it was, you know, it I mean, if should I get into my story a little bit? Oh, yeah. Um yeah, for me, the disruption probably happened. I mean, the the I was lucky I I kind of got out of evangelical bubble. Um, you know, when I went to a state college, grew up, went to a went to a public school, oh horrors. And uh, you know, just public very normal, very normal, normal, normal, normal environment. I had normal friends. You know, I had one friend who was uh, you know, non-observing Jew, and another friend who was uh uh Episcopalian. Yeah, who those are some of my really good friends, one who's Catholic actually. Oh, that's great. Yeah, no, no evangelical best buds in in high school, except for maybe the the Baptist youth group I went to. Um but I think for me, you know what I was thinking about it before this before this meeting. Um I I went to college and I fell in love with psychology. I saw in um the study of psychology a chance to see nuance, a chance to see um unseen things. Because I think we all know that we humans often do one thing and say and say one thing and do another. Every I mean, come on, everybody knows that. Most of us aren't willing to admit it to ourselves most of the time, and that's what psychology is all about. Yeah, it it will, you know, it will surprise you with the things that it finds out or the things that it uncovers. And um, my favorite course, it really got going. This this curiosity really got going with, and I brought a book. It was a it was a textbook. The class was called The History and Systems of Psychology.

unknown 22:32

Nice.

David 22:33

And uh we had this textbook which says it's uh history of modern psychology, fourth edition. It's not really modern anymore because this came out in 1987, which to me sounds like only yesterday, but it's a long time ago now. It's a good year though. Um, I was I was fascinated with the people that were talked about in this book. Oh, sure. Like um Behaviorism, yeah, JB Watson and B. F. Skinner, um William James, yeah, yeah, of course, Freud and Young and the psychoanalytic tradition, um, all the different therapies. Yeah. One of my other favorite classes was um counseling psychology. And um I think, you know, when I if I have to reflect back on it, I would say I I saw some of these figures and I realized they're all men. And that did that did start to shift. But um I I would have to say that I saw them as um you know, I don't know, what's the right word for it? Like shamans? Um people who were asking deeper questions than I was brought up to ask. And um it I just I just found it absolutely fascinating. Um and I wanted to learn more. And I and I, you know, all these years later, as I continue to study this topic, and I have a PhD in psychology and religion, studying the two things together more in a functional way rather than in a theological or confessional way. Right. Um that uh you know uh there's there's a lot about what the discipline of psychology does to help you think critically, um, to help you gain deeper insight into what's really going on in your life. Um and it's even a practice um psychology is called or psychoanalysis called the talking cure.

unknown 24:29

Right.

David 24:30

And um, you know, a lot of American psychology tends to clinicalize and medicalize treatment, and they come up with therapies and a lot of them work and they're great. And they will they tend to say, well, talking doesn't really do anything. Well, no, it does if you really are doing psychoanalysis well, right? It really does a lot. Um but it's slow and painstaking change, and that's actually the name of the game. There's nothing that there's no quick fix, there's no overnight change. And honestly, a lot of American psychology, even as I look at this textbook again, it's very mechanistic. But you know what's really interesting? Um, is um when you look at someone like William James, um, well, let's let's let's let's yeah, let's look at William James for a second. Um his father was a theologian.

Mick 25:16

Right.

David 25:17

Yeah, sweet Swedenborgian more mystical theologian, not your typical evangelical theologian. Yeah, but his father, his William James' grandfather, uh was a minister, I believe. Okay. Um in fact, William James's father, I believe it's Henry, he also has a brother named Henry, was a famous literary figure. Um, William James's father uh actually went to Princeton Theological Seminary before he became a Swedenborgan. Swedenborgan. I don't know how interesting. Yeah. Um JB Watson, founder of American behaviorism. Yeah. In the 1950s, he loved to do experiments with rats. He was a seminarian first. And as I've studied psychology and and and particularly psychoanalysis, what you know, Freud, um, his father was highly religious. I gave him a Bible, a Hebrew Bible when he was young. Um and you know, uh, I'm reading an author right now, I just finished a book uh where this uh psychoanalyst is talking about, you know, you look at Freud's theories of religion, that's it's not just him doing like applied psychoanalysis. Right. It is integral to his theory. Yeah it's part of it's part of his theory. Um and I and I there's another secondary literature commentator on Freud who that talks about how psychology in general and psychoanalysis for sure gave us a new language to describe in our life. Right. And um, you know, that's that's what that's what Freud's whole critique of religion is about. It's about how are we using religion to be dishonest with ourselves.

Mick 26:54

Yes.

David 26:54

And that's why he's been so helpful for me through over the years to continue to pick it up and read it from time to time, even though it's buried in a lot of language from a hundred years ago. Right, right. It's still relevant. But um, yeah, so I mean, I that I think the ability to ask questions, to notice things, to see underneath things, to see what's going on in a subterranean way, also opened me up to um looking at things sociologically, anthropologically. What are some of the wider, bigger trends, and how does this all interact? That's why Eric Erickson is one of my favorite theories because he's a psychosocial psychoanalyst, theoretician. Yeah, so that was actually, I mean, if I had to point, pinpoint my faith deconstruction, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it, you know, I I took some courses on world religions. I learned, oh, Christianity is not the only religion in the world, you know, and um the others are, you know, ours is ours isn't the necessarily the best, and there's no such thing as the best. Right. And that's the whole that's missing the whole point.

unknown 27:57

Right.

David 27:57

Uh there's only there's it's not even a question of there's one way to God. It's like, you know, some religions don't even care about God. Right. It's not that they hate God or like God or hate God, they just don't have a God. Yeah. And so what is that? What do you do with that? Interesting. Oh, well, that's not as good as your Christianity. No, don't don't say that.

Mick 28:12

Right. How could you know? Yeah.

David 28:14

So I think I think it was just this I this uh journey of being able to ask bigger questions. Yes. Um, that that really I've been on this whole time. Yeah. And it's ebbed and it's flowed, and I've you know, I was away from church for a while. I went back to church for a while, I worked for an evangelical publisher for a while. Right. This whole journey was still ongoing, and there were some surface changes, there were some things I wish I'd not gotten so caught up in. Yeah. Um, but I'm back, you know, and I'm and I'm and I'm now seeking again. And I and it's absolutely connected to the publishing work I do. Yeah. I I was thinking too, like the other night, we had we had dinner the other night with our with our wives, and it was great. It was um, and you you always can talk about literature. You talk about literature the way I talk about psychoanalysis, yeah. Like you you see it as like a way to like stop, uh-huh, slow down. Now I don't want to start putting words into your deconstruction story, but I I wonder, I know it has something to do with yeah, with that.

Mick 29:17

Oh, very much, yeah. Uh nutshell version, um just for expediency. But I'm I'm remembering uh Madeline Lingell's uh Wrinkle in Time reading that when I was probably 12.

David 29:33

Yeah, I definitely did not do that.

Mick 29:36

Yeah, no, I I the thing about it was I mean I went from I wish I had to show you. Sure, but I mean it it just depends on parenting and and what what um interests you had. I had a grandma who owned a bookstore.

David 29:48

Oh and oh, I didn't know that.

Mick 29:51

Yeah, so sh in Tahoe City, and she she it was a Christian bookst bookstore, but but she introduced me to a lot of books. Right. And Madeline Langell worked for it. For whatever reason, I was introduced to Madeline Langle. I'd love to look back at that and see why, because I mean she talks about witches in that book, and there's all kinds of stuff my parents would not have been okay with, but I don't know that they knew about it.

David 30:11

Um that's the big secret in publishing. There's a lot of things are in books.

Mick 30:14

Witches, dragons, spells, Harry Potter's not okay in the circles I came from. Um, so so like you know, that was probably the the first foray I had. And that you can ask questions. I love how you shared uh about your journey that just asking questions was part of your deconstruction journey. It was it was like now, oh wow, these guys can devote their lives to asking questions, bigger questions than I've ever really even let myself consider before. It was very similar for me in literature is that where I found those questions or at and in the characters' journeys. Like uh Meg, you know, why is she different than everybody uh in her family? Meg is Meg is the Meg Murray, yeah. The uh protagonist protagonist in uh Wrinkling Time. And well, this was another thing, Ramona Quimby and you know, a lot of a lot of girl um protagonists that I was kind of going, why is that? That's intriguing. Where are all the boys? Absolutely, yeah. Well, because boys were out playing our culture balls. See them as as um as jumping off of the brew or the roof and stuff. I mean, I did that too. You know, rode bikes to the to the park and all that stuff. But but still, there was like you know, Beverly Cleary and and Madeline Langle and Yeah, a lot of these authors who I was reading and girls are better writers, that's the point. Well, and they're just more thoughtful. I mean, quite honestly, like men, you you got so much to learn from women in your life. Just let yourself that's one of my big things is like I for you know, most of my early childhood, it was like this battle between having to go to church and Christian school, evangelical school my whole life. Um, all of my friends were evangelicals, all of them were not happy with the church. Uh-huh. And we would make up, you know, dirty lyrics to the songs that we were forced to sing in chapel. And you know, it's that kind of yeah, like trying to get away with stuff, being a rebel your entire life.

David 32:08

I think that snarkiness is actually there. It's just some of us forget about to do it and or some of us don't admit that we were doing it.

Mick 32:15

Yeah, yeah. Probably. And and like for me, it's it's a core part of my identity. I can't not be snarky. It's it's like I about this topic. I can't help it. Yeah. Yeah. No, about this topic, about everything, kind of. Like I just I like the British say, I always take the piss, man. I cannot help myself. And I'm I'm a rebel. Um, hopefully, with a cause as I get older here. I'm, you know, turning 52. Yeah. Uh I I would hope that I have a better um focus on on where that that snarkiness and rebellion goes. But it it is built into me. And it's by a lot of the the training that I received, you know, so I can't really get away from it now. But I also can't say I know definitively the answer to your question about God, you know, or or that I know, that I know, that I know, you know, that thing that they would tell you in evangelicalism. It's the faith is the assurance, right, of of things unseen. Uh-huh. And I say, well, I guess I I'm never gonna have faith then, because I am definitely not assured that a God even exists. Yeah. Or that if he does, that he cares about any of this that's going on. And maybe if he does care, that he can't do anything about it. I mean, there's just endless these.

David 33:29

Yeah, and maybe that scripture passage wasn't actually talking about a supernatural personal consciousness in the sky. Maybe unseen things could be other things. Could be, yeah. Could be, but that's not what we were told about that verse.

Mick 33:40

No, not at all. You're told what to believe and and how and why, and so you can go to heaven and all that. Right. And then I started asking questions because of the characters in the in the books I'm reading. And then that just continued as I started studying literature in college and even beyond there. Um, Kurt Vonnegut was was instrumental, Aldous Huxley was instrumental. I mean, there there are people, even C. S. Lewis to to for whatever people say about him, he was very open to questions. Yeah. And I really appreciate his take on things because he was Anglican. He's outside of the evangelical fold.

David 34:12

Most he wouldn't have anything to do with today's evangelicals. I mean, oh my goodness. No, that would crush them, but they they all worship him. But the funny thing is, he would run away from them as fast as he possibly could.

Mick 34:22

Yeah. No, he he was definitely not one of these authoritarian Christian nationalist types. Um or even literalists are fundamental. Or even literalists, yeah, exactly. Um, fundamentalists. Fundamentalism is largely what I have um completely just rebelled against my entire life. Yeah. Um anyone telling you, like like the the episode, the breaking out of the box episode, anyone telling you that you need to go inside a box, that's someone not to listen to. Um but whether God exists, capital G God, that is.

David 34:52

Um I think that's a very important distinction.

Mick 34:55

It is. And I I have I make it now because I I think within the last 10 years, for me, the deconstruction has been more intense. And it's largely because of what's going on in the world. Me too. Yeah. I've identified that I am overchurched and I can't really help that. Yep. That's not something I chose. Overbibled. That is just something that happened to me. Yeah. And now I have to respond to it. Yep.

David 35:18

Umchurched.

Mick 35:20

I think I I look at beliefism, and I think, you know, that's not the kind of faith I want to have. Like if I just uh assent to these certain beliefs, and well, now I'm in the club. Yeah. You know? And I just don't agree with that. Yeah. I fundamentally disagree with having to perform, I suppose, your faith for people.

David 35:39

And that's beliefism, right there.

Mick 35:41

That is beliefism. I don't want to have, I guess I don't want to settle on a capital G God. I don't want to have the faith that would be so assured. I I think I'm I'm working my way to that. Um being okay with doubt, wonder, mystery. I mean, it leaves room for awe, but it also leaves room for some like real despairing moments sometimes. And you go, okay, well, if I don't have the even not just the Santa in the sky, but but even just like a benevolent creator who is omnipotent. If I don't have that, what do I have? Yeah. And that's why I go to community. And in books has always been my community, and so I want to find the people who are like me in that way, I suppose. Yeah. And and I think uh there's this great line from my favorite movie, uh Eternal Sunshine, where uh she's trying to explain why she doesn't want to date uh the main character, Kate Winsless character is talking about uh you know who she is. She's basic basically just saying, I'm just a messed up girl who's looking for my own peace of mind, right? Uh so don't assign me yours. And and I would say that to my my parents growing up. I would say that to my my teachers, you know, the pastors. Right. Even now, as we're looking at authoritarianism taking over America, I'm like, anyone who's who's trying to assign you their peace of mind.

David 37:10

Truth is something external that you have to have injected into you.

Mick 37:13

Yes, exactly. Because you're because you're fallen, right? You're you're evil and hopeless without without a any hope. And so you need Jesus to come into your art. Right.

David 37:24

In reality.

Mick 37:25

And this is the thing. If God does exist, if there's a capital G God, he's got his own agenda, his own ideas about what this life's about. And let's just let's say that he is benevolent and and if not on omnipotent, at least has some uh effect on your life. As a loving father, as a benevolent creator, yeah, they're not gonna be assigning you their agenda. That's not love. That's basically saying, right? We talk about free will all the time. And this is a conundrum and a and a paradox, and we can't talk about it. But like it for me, uh the great energy is not enough. I can't I need something more specific and and maybe even personal. But it's a rock and a hard place here, too, because you can't ultimately say that that you are reassured that you're assured that that this God exists. Yeah, there's just no way to know. Yeah. So I guess I'm here now. We can't know. And I think we have to do what we what we can basically live with humility, kindness, generosity, forgiveness. Yeah. And like that's enough. That's enough religion for me.

David 38:30

Yeah. Yeah. So that's where I'm at. Yeah. And I think when it comes to the books we might want to work on, we don't want to like like that, like what's enough? How do we start from the platform of we're not here to tell someone what what they're supposed to believe or exactly or to tell them our truth, but for to help them discover their truth in community with us.

Mick 38:56

Show me a journey, right? Show as an author, show me your journey. And and if it's fiction, put it into your character. Yeah. Show me them learning how to come to terms with a bigger world, asking better questions. Yeah. Don't answer the question.

David 39:11

Just Yeah. And play with the community within your novel.

Mick 39:14

Right. Yeah, there you go. Right. Yeah. Meg basically ends up learning that she's got a bigger community than she realized. Yeah.

David 39:21

For me, it's um, you know, I'm, you know, I so my indie publishing company is called Lake Drive Books, and our motto is um, our tagline is books that will help you heal, grow, and discover. Love it. What you don't hear is, you know, we are one in Christ. Books for people who love Jesus. Sherry would say, what does that mean? Or what have you. Exactly. I don't even know. I never I've never known. I was a pastor's kid, and I would have to do that. Can you define your terms on there? Yeah. Right. Um, but that that is intentional. Yes. We're I'm defining, we are defining with that with that tagline books that help like our goal here is. To have relational ethics. Our goal here is to be good human beings first. Um heal, grow, and discover. And yeah, that's that's that's that's great. That you could say that's Christ-like right there, but you don't have to say that. No.

Mick 40:18

And it's not an end point. And I think that's right. Right. It's not a oh we've we've arrived. No, we're still in the world.

David 40:24

It's also I think uh a way of saying of saying that religious books don't have to be defined by a specific religious content. You don't always have to connect it to this exact thing. And I think that's that's actually our ta the task of our time is to put religion in its place.

Mick 40:43

Good.

David 40:43

Because we're a we're a country that is, you know, um, you know, uh hyper Protestant. Sure. And even and that even that even affects the non-Protestant traditions that are here. Right. You've had I mean there's even Muslims who've claimed to be evangelicals during the Trump years. Yeah. I mean, only only a certain group that's a Trump supporting group. Yeah, sure. There's there's all kinds of Trump supporters from different camps, and they're not the majority of their own camp. Wow necessarily. But but there was a study once that showed that demonstrated or a survey.

Mick 41:15

Yeah. Um but like you don't even have to go as far back as the Puritans or or you know, yeah, Whitfield or any of these the the preachers and Spurgeon and and others to to notice that there's a particular religious Protestant ethic when we talk about family values and why people vote on the right. Uh at at every I mean you cannot not be a Christian and be um elected president of the United States. Yeah. There's a reason for that.

David 41:46

Yep. Or do a lot of other things. You cannot not be a Christian.

Mick 41:50

That's right. You must even be in a conversation with someone. Absolutely. And this is the thing that we're trying to get um talked about.

David 41:58

And I think that's why some of the books we're doing, uh that's one reason anyway, why some of the books we're doing are more story-oriented, even though you know it's it's a classic in publishing that memoirs don't necessarily work. Well, they do work. There's there's some very they're working all the time, actually. Um but they generally tend to be harder to if you're not well known, if you don't have a big platform. Yes. Um if you don't have a way to get the book discovered, even if you do have a really great story that's unique, and not just a great story, but a unique great story. Right. Um yeah. Um but I think I think storytelling is really key to the publish we're publishing we're doing. Um because I don't think you know, as much as we were brought up to focus on Jesus, people didn't know what to do with his stories. They're they're focused on Paul and and beliefism. Yeah, exactly. And they're not actually telling stories unless it's to get around to the beliefs. Yeah. But um, you know, Jesus told a story but asked you to kind of figure out what to do with it. Exactly. He wasn't giving you he wasn't giving you the conclusions. Yeah.

Mick 43:04

Um I really like when Jesus uses that sleight of hand stuff. Yeah. And he's telling a story, and well, what do you think? Yeah, you know, what what does what is the sum of the law to you? Or, you know, even I'm getting too many followers here. Let's let's talk about right drinking blood and eating my my body so we can get rid of some of these, you know, basically the performers, the people who are just here because they heard that I'm a yeah, I'm a teacher. Let's let's test that. Let's see how many will stay after I talk about this. Yeah. Or like, Jesus, Jesus, why are you why are you making people leave? You're don't you understand? You have to be more uh, you know, use use marketing, Jesus. Use use better PR. Let's just let let us help you. He's like, no, let them go their way. The blind will lead the blind into a pit. That's the way it works. Yeah, they need to be in the pit before they realize they need to get out of it. Like, let them go, you know, let them go. And I guess that's the thing that really helped me to recognize like if someone's identifying with Paul more than Jesus, let them go. Right. They want to do that for some whatever the reason is, whether it's legalism or their own. Let them go or block them on social media because there's no arguing with everybody else, exactly. You just don't argue with it. Just that's where they are in their journey.

David 44:18

I think too, it's it's telling stories that are not allowed to be told by this culture that we grew up in. That's great. And um, you know, if there's a story that's not allowed to be told or that has to be framed a certain way and it can't be told in its own right, um, and you know, and and we know what those stories are. And those are the stories we need to be publishing and telling. So we've got books by you know a transgender woman, we've got book a book about an intersex person, we've got a book by um a gay man who grew up in you know pretty difficult constrictive uh religious setting where you know you really struggle. Right. Right. Talk about religious drama. Yeah. Um we have um you know a couple of black authors who are super creative, hoping, hoping we'll find more. Um just really creative. Like I I don't even know how to put a framework around what they do. And I just want to I just want to help them do it well. Yeah. Um and um yeah, stories by stories by women and men. Um stories about sexual abuse. Yeah, we're we're we're into our second book about that, actually. Um Christa Brown's book, yeah. Stories about gaslighting. Um yeah, so it's I mean that's it it has a um one person described it a little bit as an edge. I I kind of tend to think it it it's sort of more underneath. It's like let's let's look at what you've all been sweeping under the rug for so long. Yeah, the stuff we couldn't talk about. There's some, you know, there's some earth here. Yeah. There's some life here. Right. And there's some things here that we we all can learn from.

Mick 46:02

People finding a different way.

David 46:04

Yeah. Yeah. Um so absolutely. I mean, you can I I don't know if if anyone's listened this far, but it maybe they can say, I mean for me, that I see a through line between where I've been and and what I'm pushing this this publishing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, the editorial vibe, it's not, it's not a denominational publisher. Right. Right. I'm not trying to be churchy in any way whatsoever.

Mick 46:26

But I'm well the gatekeeping aspect, right?

David 46:28

You're yeah, get away from that. Or even just that everything has to be framed with certain language. Yeah. It's like, what are you centering all the time? Very good. You know. I mean, uh there there are days when I go, boy, I just wish I could put the word Jesus on my titles more because I'd sell more books.

Mick 46:48

You know, you should think about that. Yeah, I know. Just add in Christ. Trust me, I've InChrist to everything.

David 46:53

Published all those books in the past too.

Mick 46:55

You'll grow and discover in Christ. Just try it.

David 46:57

Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. We're gonna have a focus group on that. Yeah, that's good.

Mick 47:02

That's good. Um or just the marketing could see that.

David 47:06

So I think I think that's what we're struggling with, is we're we're trying to, you know, we've talked about this. It's like it's the the communities around this are in turbulence. They're reformed. Community is being reformed right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not as though we know exactly where it's going. And it may actually stay more fragmented or segmented anyway.

Mick 47:26

Like maybe that's a good thing.

David 47:28

Maybe that's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 47:30

Yeah. The the sort of diversity in or or the strength and diversity idea. And like that is an ideal that I have. I think what we're talking about with not being gatekeepers as as publishers or or even as an editor, like what books will I work on? I got rid of my entire like, well, it has to be Christian. Or it has to have, you know, a certain like, does it even have to be spiritual? Do I have to have a point? Or does the the author have to have a point? No. A statement about God in some way, shape, or form. In fact, sometimes I think that's what I'm trying to stay away from. Like anything that has the gatekeeping aspect to it, I just want to stay away from. I don't want to do books.

David 48:09

It's shuts down the critical thing. There's no there's no discussion there.

Mick 48:11

It shuts down the insight. Yeah, it's like trying to teach me something. It shuts down the ability to notice beauty. Right. So so if we can like open up that, first of all, then we can start to realize there is strength in diversity. And if you can recognize that what you don't know is often more important than what you feel you already do know. Yeah. Because what you do know, they say, is about five percent of what's available out there. Look at the other 95%, what you don't know yet, and then get a little humble and start exploring that and look at it, investigate it, because it's gonna change you. Listen to the world around you. Reading does that, right? It forces you to kind of like take in this larger world. Yeah. Uh I I think that's what we're we're coming to. And uh as good a place to stop as any, but we will continue to explore this. Um the strength and diversity concept to me is is much more um relevant and ultimately instructive to our modern age and and where we're I I say where we are. I mean, I guess you know, it's it's the end of January here in 2026, and and it's not looking good politically, but at least from my perspective, um other people might have a completely different perspective, and I want to hear that too. I don't if they're willing, if they're willing to have an open mind and and open hand with it, sure.

David 49:35

Speak calmly about it. Yeah.

Mick 49:37

I mean, even the people saying, Let's find balance, like where are the bridge builders? Like, I hear you, not right now, but also there's a lot of stuff that we're sweeping under the rug. And are you willing to listen to that as well? Right. So being willing to listen, listen in terms of like the idea of America as a very diverse place, and not even just America, but like religion, God. God must be diverse, right?

David 50:01

Right. Um how's that all work financially as well? Well, I mean, you know, we've talked about this. There's a lot of money in God, and that's right. And that's what a lot of one of the things people don't really understand.

Mick 50:12

Yeah, and as soon as you start saying some of these things and asking questions about it, you're no longer financially viable to a lot of people. Yeah. That's right. It's hard. It is, it's hard, and you have to kind of like make that calculus and and question it. Just like a president can't get elected without saying they're a Christian.

David 50:28

We're a country that wants easy answers, you know. We have evangelical culture, but I don't have time. But I don't know if you're not going to be able to do wellness culture is the same thing. Yeah. Um, psychology culture can be very much like that. I you know, I was always amazed in textbooks how they put Freud's stages, psychosexual stages in like a chart, you know, textbooks. Sure. And I I would always go through his books and go, where's the that come from?

Mick 50:51

Where's the chart? Where'd they where'd they find this? It doesn't exist. Yeah. Yeah, it it's reductive. It's it's ultimately like doing a disservice to Freud.

David 51:03

There's a lot of fundamentalism that goes on. There's a lot of um, I need this answer. Yeah, I need this joy because I can't find it internally. Yeah. I don't have it. And I think that's what we're struggling with. It's not necessarily our fault.

Mick 51:19

Yeah.

David 51:20

Right off the bat, no one's we don't need to be blame. We need to see things we need to take responsibility for. Sure. That's our that's our challenge. Yeah. Yeah. And and how we do that as book publishing professionals and what role do we play in in all that. Right. Right.

Mick 51:38

Offering uh resources to heal, grow, and discover.

David 51:42

Yep. Yeah. Sometimes that's all I can do is focus on the I'm so glad I have it. Yeah. Even though it's difficult, I'm so glad I have this because it's it feels like okay, I am publishing. I am, yeah, thank you. I am doing, I am, I am trying to work with things upstream. Right. And um I mean they say that, you know, when you when you're trying to understand uh that maybe uh one of your loved ones is queer, yeah. Um, or what if you're trying to change your theology about that, pay attention to the queer people around you.

Mick 52:14

Yeah, exactly.

David 52:14

Get to know someone. And then and then that might change. And I feel like that's what I'm helping. Like, I mean, some some of some of our on that topic, you know, I I often will say, You you say you know someone who's queer, do you really know their experience? Right. Read a whole 60 or 75,000 word manuscript about it and it will change your point of view.

Mick 52:33

Nothing like a book to help you understand someone's mind.

David 52:35

I've read some stuff I just I've even I've grown tons by just publishing some of these books. Like I'm you know, reading them out and you're just going, I had no idea. I had no idea. Yeah.

Mick 52:46

And what you had no idea about often is that they are just like you, or that they had a very similar sort of take on it. And and they actually help you think better about your own life in many cases. Because some of them have actually gone down this path before we did but they were forced to. And and they've struggled in the ways that I'm struggling. Maybe it's with religious trauma for me, but it's a totally different thing for them. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that develops empathy, like and a natural sort of connection and a natural appreciation for the um diversity that we're talking about. Yep. So let's continue on next time. This is really good. Um, that's not the end all of a course of everything we'll talk about with our own face.

David 53:26

We repeat things we say, so and it's gonna change. It's gonna be a good thing. I'd love to know that because that means you've really been listening. That's right.

Mick 53:35

Uh thanks for being here, and uh, we'll catch you next time.