What (Really) Makes a Great Author Great?

Sit down and listen in as I ask David Morris, publisher and literary agent, what really makes great authors great. Beyond the usual list of necessary qualities like being a good writer with a great concept and a reasonably sized platform, what makes an author someone we want to work with long-term? 

And surprise! Our definition of "greatness" is a bit different, but let's get real: every creative person dreams of finding this kind of reciprocal cooperation, don't they? 

• #1 is humility / teachability - receiving openly without defensiveness
• Aiming for authenticity and connection over a quick win
• And seeking professional maturity through long-term relationships

We also discuss being "heart-led" over head-dominant, the types of authors we tend to avoid, and why a true partnership eats transactional relationships for breakfast. From our extensive experience working with authors to help produce both award-winning and bestselling books (though we don't love those nebulous terms), we've hit on some essential qualities any aspiring author should find useful to know...

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

Mick 0:00

Hey everybody, this is Publishing Disrupted. I'm Mick Silva.

David 0:04

I'm David Morris.

Mick 0:06

And we are two former Christian publishing professionals now finding our way in the independent market and disruption. The book publishing industry is undergoing disruption. So we're basically just talking about how writers can meet that challenge. And we talk about all manner of things here.

David 0:24

How we personally meet that challenge. How we disrupt. How we're disrupting things and how we feel disrupted despite ourselves.

Mick 0:34

And that's why it's just, it's the perfect title because we have so much we can discuss. And so today though, we really wanted to say, okay, we're coming back from, well, you came back from some vacation time. I was at another conference, but post Wild Goose, that's

Travels and updates

Mick 0:54

still sort of percolating in my head.

David 0:56

I haven't asked you about that yet.

Mick 0:57

But no, it was fine. It's just, it was actually a retreat. It's supposed to be a retreat for For editors. For editors, that's right. In Nash Vegas, as we call it. But yeah, I wasn't doing any of the glad handing. Fortunately, I was mostly just kind of consorting with my peers and-

David 1:13

Masterminds of publishing.

Mick 1:16

Discussing the fits and foibles of editing, which is a lot of fun for me. I typically, I mean, it's a mixed group because it's some, should we say, like very evangelical in -the -box folks. And then there's some- questioning that allegiance.

David 1:34

There's some who are questioning?

Mick 1:35

Yeah yeah, and I don't know, I probably have a foot in in both worlds which is why I feel split most of the time. But but yeah it was good. I think some of the sessions that we had were good for fodder. I'm still thinking through that. Kathy Helmers was there, she came and spoke that was really cool and she's got a great idea .

David 1:58

She's a literary agent long time, yeah industry professional.

Mick 2:01

Yeah. So, um, reintroduced myself to her and, and she's just, she's very gracious. She's one of the agents that I, I enjoy. Um, people are always asking me who's a good agent. And I say you, of course. Yeah. But, um, also, yeah, Kathy Helmers is in there. Um, Kathy is an agent that can actually

David 2:19

like be on a stage at a writing conference and not just talk about writing, but talk about spirituality.

Mick 2:25

Yeah. And just enjoy yourself, you know, like it's, it's so funny cause some of our throwaway lines are like the keepers it's hilarious. She's got so much experience.

David 2:33

I don't want to interrupt you, but that is sort of like one of the things about publishing is you're too busy to actually express some of your own thoughts. But if you think about it, who's doing more research into what's going on with contemporary spirituality in a market, in a marketplace too, which is where like, it's, it's very real, whether, whether it's where, whether it's inauthentic or not, it's actually what's happening. Yep. And, and you, become a student of what's going on out there. Agents are seeing a lot of that. I mean, I think publishers should and agencies should give their staffers like six months sabbaticals to go and write their own books sometimes because

Mick 3:13

they probably know

David 3:14

more. I

Mick 3:15

mean,

David 3:15

yeah,

Mick 3:16

we'd get a lot more out of it and we wouldn't need this podcast really be really helpful. But I mean, it's changing so fast. It's hard to say, you know, a book would be the definitive resource. There are some good books by agents out there and I've, I've referred people to them. Um, Um, but just recently it was mentioning the first five pages by Noah Lukman. That's an older one, but it's for writers in understanding like what's a hook and we should do an episode on that. I already said that before, but like what, what's a hook and how do you like execute that in your first five pages? Cause industry professionals don't have a lot of time and they just want to see what, what your writing is doing, if it's working or not, if you have a good concept, if you're able to execute on that. So, but, uh, yeah. So anyway, that was, that was a good conference. And I felt like I was semi rested, but you know, traveling. Right. It's always hard. Same. And like you were going on vacation, but it was with family. So that's sort of stressful. And yeah, there's all kinds of stuff.

David 4:13

Eating, eating unhealthily and gone. Right.

Mick 4:18

Trying to accommodate for a lot of different people's preferences. And yeah. Yeah. Yes. That's the big thing.

David 4:24

Yeah. For, for, for someone who overthinks things, it's very stressful.

Mick 4:30

Yeah. It's like you've got to get back to your office and be alone just to relax a little bit. I love my family, but it's stressful

How do we determine who to work with?

Mick 4:37

sometimes. No, they're challenging and they're wonderful. But returning to normal here, you know, we're basically looking for how do authors benefit from what we have to offer. And every time we come and sit down, you know, this is really just an extension of our Zoom call that we were kind of like connecting with each other about like our work and talking about like what's coming up for you and who who are you working with and stuff. But if we have authors listening in, I was thinking like one thing that would be really helpful for authors is to understand like how do we determine who to work with and what's our criteria? I mean, it'd be nice to have just a bullet pointed list and hand that to people, but I don't have anything like that. It's some intangibles, it's some like I guess professionalism, a network, right? We've talked about the three-legged stool. And I mean, I don't know, you have a really great way of describing that. Do you feel like that? Yeah, sure. Yeah,

David 5:36

I'll jump in. I mean, in publishing, we often talk about, you just said the three-legged stool. Yeah. And that is usually a great concept, great writing, and great platform. Right. You need all three of those things. And maybe one can be a little more wobbly and it's still worth doing, but you need all three of those things. Okay. Maybe one stands out and it helps the others along, but you need, you need more than just one thing. So anyway. Yeah. But you can have all those things and yet there's still something deeper that could be driving your success. Okay. You know, there's plenty of people who've been successful with those three things, those three things, but there's plenty of people who haven't had this one key ingredient that has held them back from getting those three things, or even if they find those three things being successful with them. Right. And that, and that, and that one key thing is being a great human being. It's about humility. It's about professionalism. It's about how, and I mentioned this in our last podcast, we we've touched on this. We've come around to this every so often, but we really indirectly. Yeah. Indirectly. Yeah. It's, it's there, it's in the water. And that is, you know, or like how, how you act as a business person. Yeah. Behind the scenes, how you interact with your publishing professionals in your life. Those, those things can slow you. If you don't have that great human being aspect, the humility part, the grounded part that that's probably the one thing that if you don't have it, that's probably holding you back more than anything else. because great concepts can be created and then new ones can be created. Platforms can be built and rebuilt. Great writing can always get better and sometimes great writing sells really well. I mean, sometimes bad writing sells really well, too, by the way.

Mick 7:48

Yeah, we touched on that.

David 7:50

Have you ever opened up a bestseller book and like, this isn't so great? What's the... Why is everybody so excited about it? Right. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's that, it's

How can we tell if an author's humble?

David 8:02

that humility thing. And you were wondering, how do we, how can we tell when, you know, before, how do we make a decision about working with somebody before, before we start work, before we get too committed with them? And it's hard to tell. That's

Mick 8:14

the first answer. And you can get carried away. I get carried away because I'm looking for great writing. I mean, just honestly, up front, I feel like great writing is probably the most important thing when, when it comes to like a platform, like you said, I mean, it's great to have, uh, hopefully you can learn how to build one and, and find your audience. I mean, that's, that's definitely, uh, I guess the, the marketing part of it. And, and it's a skill. I think writing is a skill too, but there's something that's really, I don't know. It's, it's like, it's, um, irreplaceable. Either you understand how to hook someone and how to interest them in a story or you don't, it's almost like story structure. Like you have to internalize this thing and And I guess that's from an editor's perspective, obviously. But like, you know, having studied English and writing and so many stories, I just feel like there are certain people who really kind of can can grab attention. Yeah. Right. And if you can do that on the page and execute that well, it's like the other two legs of the stool. Right. You're going to find good concepts. They're out there. Right. Everybody can have a good idea. Yeah. Can you execute on that? And if you can do that, then you can do that on stage. You can do that on a podcast. And that's how you sell the book, right? So it's kind of like connecting all of those dots starts at being able to explain yourself well or say a story. Yeah,

David 9:43

and that can even be like platform. Sure, yeah. Your great platform is actually built on great writing. Not the writing in the book per se, but also you're communicating on platforms.

Mick 9:53

Your ability to communicate, that's right. Yeah, I think you've said it before somehow. I'm forgetting your phrasing, but like... Being able to execute and share a story well is kind of the primary skill here. I mean, it's obvious, right? We're writing books. But that so often seems secondary or tangential to the book publishing process. And I feel as an editor and even just as a creative person, a bit stymied sometimes because so many people come into this thinking, well, it's a business and I'll just make it work and I'll put all the pieces where they belong. and I'll hire a ghostwriter. And of course, that obviously does work. You can do that and sell a lot of books with a ghostwriter. But if you can't do that, like be a good communicator on a podcast or on stage, you're not going to get very far. So I would argue, I mean, maybe you're using a ghostwriter because a book's a long form. Or there's a lot of

David 10:56

good reasons for ghostwriters. For sure. If you've got a big platform and you're not a writer yourself right you want to reach people through that book medium right yeah but you can hire a ghost writer who's a good writer

Mick 11:07

absolutely you can see that well well i would argue like the ghost writers are kind of running that side of the business and yeah they're they're proving my point yeah you have to be able to do that so given that uh the intangibles of that though how to share a good story and and do that well i would argue is understanding human nature yeah and being someone who uh is a good person kind of like you said like not having nefarious Yeah. some sort of, even if it's existential angst, like you go for a novel that's gonna speak to that desire that's deeper in you, right? And maybe it's up to the book to kind of identify that. But as you start reading it and you go, oh, this is really speaking to me, that's the magic. That's the place where I think an author has identified, oh, there was something that's deeper in myself that I think connects to other people and I'm gonna put that in a book. Finding that starting point like whatever success looks like, figuring out the answer or solution to your problem. That's what we're putting in the book. Right. So starting with, for the author in this, uh, listening to this podcast, how, what, what's the felt need? Well, they, they want to be successful in publishing a book. How, how are we going to help them do that? Well, show them what it means to be a good person, right? How do, how do we break that down? How do we say to someone

What's it take to work with us specifically?

Mick 12:58

listening to this show, well, what does it take to be either a Lake drive author or at hyponymous working with you or, or with Mick Silva as a, as an editor? Like what does it take to be someone they want to work with?

David 13:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and that's the big question for us is we don't always know how to figure that out. Yeah. I mean, we get carried away by what we might see on pay on in a proposal or in a platform.

Mick 13:25

It's a really great idea. And you get into it. They didn't really execute it very well. Right. Right. Right. Or they don't have a platform. That's typically one of the difficulties too.

David 13:34

Well, we were just talking before this, before we started recording about, um, an author that I'm looking at where, um, and we see this where, you know, we've seen this plenty of times where, where, and you've talked about this, where the writing is, is, um, coming from up on high as an authority. Right. Um, and that's all it is. Um, that's the, that sometimes tells you this person just wants to explain things and not enter into a relationship with the reader. That's great. Um, and show what they know rather than involve them in, in a story or in a feeling, share a feeling. Um, and you've talked in the past about, uh, it seems that, you know, in publishing today, it's more of a trend to, to like, that's what people are really gravitating to is when you share, part of your story. I've brought up, I'm sure I've brought up Brene Brown more than once, but that's what I remember most about her books was, is that she's kind of describing what's going on in her life while she's describing her concepts. Yep. And so you kind of connect with her. Yeah. The only problem with that is that when someone, Brene Brown meets someone, a reader, the reader thinks they know her. That's true. It's like, wait a minute, we don't actually know each other yet. There's a little false familiarity happening. Yeah. Yeah. I've done that. I've done that.

Mick 15:00

No, I know. And that is probably one of the drawbacks, but, but I would argue too, you want that kind of familiarity. You want that kind of relationship with your reader. Yeah. And I've argued for this a lot with people writing stories, whether that's fiction or even like memoir, you're, you're basically having to trust your reader. You trust the reader will get it. A lot of times I find, and this is just an endemic in the process. What you start with, with a writer is they had this idea that they want to get across to the reader and they're going to like walk them through how they got there. We don't need all that. We can condense that. We can trust the reader to sort of infer what you're leaving out. Right. Don't

David 15:41

tell them the emotions they're supposed to be feeling.

Mick 15:44

Exactly. Or even like some of the concepts or some of the words, like I've said before, a lot of times the skill in telling a story well is to get the reader to imagine the word that you aren't saying. Right? Because that helps to sort of like crystallize what it is you're trying to do or the idea that you're trying to make them feel smart not yeah them think you're smart yeah so so that's that's a very different sort of sleight of hand that right a storyteller has to learn to sort of spur

David 16:14

on their own thinking

Mick 16:15

yeah yeah exactly

David 16:17

not spell everything out

Mick 16:18

now spell everything out trust your reader right and see that happens in the editing process so typically first drafts even second drafts often are too spelled out yeah and and you've got you know this managed is too long, well, just condense a lot of the stuff that you're assuming a reader needs to know, because they don't need to know how you got everywhere. So that's one of those things that I just use as a shorthand to help people understand. We're trying to, I guess, give readers a good experience when they come to your book. And Brene Brown, by being herself, is giving you a good experience. She does have the authority of experience. Right. a lot of research based information that she's going to hand you but she's not starting there she's starting with she's a person who had a need yeah and recognized this problem in her life and went on a quest to find a solution for it and then that engages your heart it's a heart level thing rather than a

Can you take feedback?

Mick 17:19

head thing yeah at least to start

David 17:21

yeah and the question is as a writer working with a publishing professional are you going to be the one that is a safe writer to receive feedback. Sometimes if you're not getting great feedback, it might be because the editor doesn't feel very comfortable. That

Mick 17:41

has

David 17:41

happened. Yeah. There's that. That's a possibility. It might not be the only explanation. Sure. It could be that the editor is really busy or the editor is not very good or whatever. Oh, yeah. No. There's all kinds of things. Yeah. But are you the author that will allow the editor to help you go deep? to cut out some of the verbiage that's saying too much. I feel like when I do editing that I've got a psychology background. I've always wanted to bring things out of people. I think that's something I'm pretty good at doing. Yeah, absolutely. In one-to-one relationships or even professionally. And in editing, an author will hit on something and they'll start talking about something and then they just give it one sentence. Yeah. And I will often say, whoa, this is very rich. Yeah. You just said something very rich. Can you take another paragraph?

Mick 18:42

Oh, all the time. On this. That's right. Which is almost the opposite problem is what I was describing. Yeah. And

David 18:47

usually they do. I mean, usually. Sure. If you

Mick 18:50

phrase it that way. Because they don't necessarily see what's valuable or what treasure they have. They need to point it out.

David 18:56

Right. Right. Yeah. Like I think the reader, I'll say, I think the reader would love to hear you explain this more in your own words and now I'm saying explain but

Mick 19:07

or like how you got there maybe sometimes it is helpful to see like okay that idea feels pretty like well defined or you understand something that not a lot of people understand how did you get there

David 19:22

and I'd like to comment on one more thing on that thread there too and that is I think that's something that we need more of these days is rich experience and rich feelings. I think that's a huge topic in the United States today when it comes to religion and spirituality, when it comes to self-help. Feeling your way to... Maybe when it comes to politics, it's like, how do we get out of our heads? Yeah, good. And and how do we get away from you use the word beliefism in religion how do we get out of thinking everything's about what we think

Mick 20:09

yeah

David 20:09

and more about um how things make us feel or how the things we do make other people feel

Mick 20:15

that's so good um

David 20:17

and that's that's what i don't man that's what i feel like when i'm rating i i'm like you know so i'm like in my late 50s and i've read a lot of books i've read a lot of self-help i had a lot of like advice giving type books there's so much advice out there and it's just like a you know after all this time I'm starting to say to myself I've heard all the advice I need I need to actually just go do some things that's good that's

Mick 20:42

right yeah

David 20:43

you know I need to trust myself and maybe I need to trust other people more yeah and just stop worrying about whether I'm doing something right and just find my way through it

Mick 20:54

yeah see that sounds like the start of a good book there you go yeah to me is that that's sounds very relatable yeah because that that's a good place to start i would think if if someone's like recognizing that's a very humble thing uh to observe as well to go okay i have a lot of knowledge and you're not going oh that makes me you know capable no actually it's sort of thing sort of stymieing it's actually yeah maybe a detriment to me i need to go live my life and that that feels very um understandable relatable like it's a good starting place for a humble I guess, narrator or even someone to kind of lead us through their journey.

David 21:38

Especially growing up evangelical, it's always been, well, what does the Bible have to say? You know, what do I need to learn? Or

Mick 21:46

like you said, it's the right answer. Like, what's the right answer? And once I know it, I can set that aside.

David 21:50

Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 21:53

It's like, no, life doesn't work that way. Right. Right. It's not about having all the right answers. Yeah. If it was, I think we'd all good there wouldn't be the anxiety epidemic that we have and yeah you know but

Are you "heart-driven?"

Mick 22:06

I think absolutely what you're talking about is it's a good maybe bullet point to what makes a humble author what makes an author we want to work with right ultimately what makes a successful author yeah right it's it's being teachable it's being grounded it's being mature but it's it's it's asking questions it's asking questions it's being willing to go on a journey and that's vulnerable that doesn't feel like you have all the answers and is led by the heart right as much as it's informed by the head right right because i don't know that we want to do one or the other ever we want to do both

David 22:45

sometimes i can tell when i'm working with an author that is starting to concern me is if we have a meeting and that author does all the talking now that doesn't always mean there's an issue that can't be overcome sure

Mick 22:59

maybe they're just a talker

David 23:00

but it Yeah, but it could also mean that we're not gonna have a very strong partnership. And maybe they think of the work that we're offering as a service to them and they're the consumer. Or maybe they're just, maybe they are talkative, which could be a liability. Or maybe there is a control issue issue there or maybe there are boundary issues yeah there um i definitely have you know we both oh yeah both have yeah i mean we work with human beings it's gonna it's all over the place we choose wrong all the time still we choose wrong yeah yeah but if there if there if if there's not a room to breathe yeah i often say too to authors that the magic be careful of magical thinking

Mick 23:55

yeah

David 23:56

in publishing yeah that you know if i do this i'll get that

Mick 23:58

or

David 23:58

if that happens or i just need that one thing and then that will be- Endorser. I need that magic endorser. The magic to me more happens in the conversation. And when you're working together with someone, like I'll, I'll say that a lot about with regard to marketing. Um, I, I, I'm a meeting heavy minded marketing person. I feel like we need to get together to understand each other, strengths and weaknesses. I have, you have as an author, have strengths and weaknesses. I have publisher strengths and weaknesses and to learn what those are, um, to kind of customize how things best work. Yes. Um, And, uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, I think, uh, that when you, when you're trying to talk about marketing, that's where you're going to really figure out how best to do a launch team or how best to do social media posting or how best to do fine speaking, um, those kinds of things. Um, I think that's, that's where it comes out. And in that sense, it doesn't matter who's doing the talking. Sometimes it's really more like, who's, are we learning what we need to learn here? Is, is

Mick 25:07

it coming out? Yeah. Yeah. One thing, uh, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the, the division between feeling and thinking and that that's just coming out of this conversation. But I've thought about that before, how I think a lot of times an author will feel like they have to perform upfront sort of the, um, assumed ritual of talking about what, what their passion is for this project. It's even in my vision form. When I start working with someone and I hand them this, it's the last question on the list, but it's like, what makes you want to write this book or what, what was your passion for this topic?

David 25:44

Yeah.

Mick 25:45

And I say, well, you know, limit it to a hundred words if you can, but you know, I want to know like, what is the heart level reason why you have to do this? Cause it's going to be, it's going to be a journey. Right. And I hope that you enjoy the journey. I hope it's a fun thing to work with an editor and then get a book out there. Right. Um, but like, it's going to start with your passion and then seeing that passion come to fruition on the page and then having hand it to someone as an experience to say, look, this, this is what happened to me. I hope it relates to, to your life as well. That's, that's just a fulfilling thing to do. So let's talk about that initially. But then I do feel like sometimes an author gets the idea that rather than be sincere or come from a sincere place of, of like, well, my real passion was that I, my grandma gave me this important lesson when I was younger and now I just want to want to hand it to people. It's more like well I'm going to make up this story or I'm going to add bells and whistles to make it seem really fancy to an editor and then that's going to sound really good and it's going to make them want to work with me. You need to take a story brand class. Yeah it's kind of like that. It's like they got this idea that they have to follow the steps of the important story or seem important. I've heard that story brand thing a lot. Yes. So to me it feels very self-important. It feels like you're gilding the lily as they say like it's already a lily like stop trying to make it fancy and of course we've talked about our distaste for pretense before but

Can we be vulnerable and still "safe?"

Mick 27:21

it it really just feels fraught with peril for publishing people who are in this industry to say oh we really just want to see someone who's leading from the heart or is like what you just basically described like feelings right that we need to be led by our feelings more sounds very dangerous in in like the professional part of me because like that's my armor is my thinking you know that's the way that i defend against being used by someone who's basically like giving me a line yeah or trying to sell me a story that's insincere

David 27:57

right but what our feelings do is they they are a product of experience and they are not subject to the super ego to bring in some to bring in some psychology to bring in like that controlling mind that rational mind

Mick 28:15

yep

David 28:16

um they're they're responding to all of experience yeah in a way and um we have to listen to them yeah and it could be that's where the creative spark comes from that's where new knowledge comes from or at least that's where that's where we can layer new knowledge on top of those feelings or connect it to those feelings that's good

Mick 28:37

yeah yeah and I I think just personally, I also probably need to trust that I can discern when someone's being sincere with the story and when they're not. I mean, at least ultimately, you know, after a conversation and, you know, you're having that little sort of debrief with yourself, you know, like what went well, you know, do I want to work with this person or not? I'm usually thinking about the stories that they've shared, you know, their concept and whether they seem like a winnable or winning personality, I guess. To me, what makes someone publishable is if I feel like they wanted to connect with me when we were talking. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And it's kind of like a one-on-one type thing. And

David 29:25

they even care about you. They ask

Mick 29:27

you about what's going on in your life. They're not so dead set on what they wanted out of the conversation. Right. Just strictly goal-oriented. Yeah. Going down their list of questions so they can get to the end of it and get what they wanted out of me. Yep. It felt more like... either collegial or respectful

David 29:49

or... That's why I don't like it when... I'm not a big fan when authors are interviewing me and they're like, well, I'm interviewing several agents. Oh, yeah. It happens all the time. And I'm like, you know, I would just rather you just go with someone else. I don't want to... If that's what you're doing here, yeah. Yeah, because I'm a person. Yeah, I get that,

Mick 30:06

but I just don't want to do this. And maybe some agents do. Maybe they are. They have a lot of clients and they don't have time for the niceties and keep things formal. I

David 30:20

think, too, it's often about network, like the network that you're in. I think that you'd be surprised of the variety of agents that are out there, and there probably is more than one that could be good for you or publishers, but there are probably others that would be even better for you. There's probably one there's probably one that you might even want to zero in on the most. And that might actually be something of a clue about authenticity. You know, are you the most connected to this one? I remember one author said that they chose one publisher over another. This is back in the old days. Because that publisher had more New York Times bestsellers. Oh,

Mick 31:09

okay.

David 31:10

And I'm like, good, go with that. That's great. Go with that other publisher. I'm glad you went there.

Mick 31:14

Well, right. Because if that's

David 31:15

what's most important to you, you, then that's, that's just,

Mick 31:19

and I don't want to completely dismiss that. Like maybe that's, that's coming from a more sincere place than we would assume. Yeah, that's true.

David 31:26

I

Mick 31:26

suppose they were honest. Like, yeah, exactly. Like they want to be successful at this and they want to be able to write more books. Okay, great. But like, yeah,

David 31:33

we've talked about the New York Times.

Mick 31:36

Like that's not what you think it is. Yeah. Um, but, but yeah, I, I, I guess I, I worry that, uh, authors or writers listening to this would feel compelled to like not, um, not approach you if, if they felt, you know, like they're a different type of author and like, cause this could sound like we're judging or like we're being a little bit, um, elitist here saying, you know, we want people to be real and humble and, uh, no, honestly, we really

Are you open and willing to listen?

Mick 32:07

just want people to be open. I don't know if that's the right word, but like willing to listen and have a conversation and respect people. experiences and you know, the fact that we're coming here as professionals and we assume they are too. Yeah, but also we're real people. Yeah, and we'd like to like who we work with.

David 32:31

Often, I will every so often see people complaining about an agent or a publisher like on social media. You know, they said something mean or they said something or they did something that seems insensitive or even complain about Amazon screwed up something about their book. And, um, you know, a lot of the time when I see those things, I often, I mean, I'm from what I can just discern from what I'm reading. It's like, you don't know that that's not the whole story there. Right. And this is not a slight against you. This is not the world of business being, um, crass and jaded. Yeah. Um, and that, that often tells me about, um, someone's humility and maturity when I see those kinds of comments. Yeah. Don't just assume that

Mick 33:23

you know what's going on. Right. Or why that happened. Right. Yeah. That's a good point.

David 33:27

Right. And I, and often too, um, is, is that there's, there's real humans on the other side of that table who also have, they're also on a journey and they have, they have feelings about what they're doing. And yeah, that, that I think is one of the, one of the things that I will, I, I will look at some time to go, okay, not sure about, not sure I want to like go deep in with that person. Right.

Mick 33:54

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we've, we've been burned. I think we've all worked with, uh, people who we probably would not work with again. Yeah. And I think that's how you learn. You go forward and you're like, okay, well, that means I need to be more discerning upfront next time. Right. If I can. And I'm not very systematic. I think you probably are more systematic in the way that you approach your work and business I'm more of a default kind of thinker I don't plan but when it is in a conversation with someone and I'm recognizing some characteristics that might be troublesome later yeah but you pick up on those things quicker well I try to at least because I've been burned so many times and I guess as an editor but you're

David 34:34

also catching on to the feelings quicker I think

Mick 34:38

well it's because my job requires things to get pretty intimate pretty quickly yeah that is publishing for sure I have to ask some pretty important impertinent questions up front sometimes and you know like we were saying like go deeper that's not everybody not everyone wants to do that even some people who have submitted their manuscript are like that's probably as much as I want to say about whatever that was and then I will kind of like try to have this like microcosm almost in that first conversation like how's that going to go I try to get like ideas about what they're going to do are they going to fight me Are they going to be open? You know, everybody says, Oh, I'm so easy to edit and I'm, I'm open to any kind of feedback. So don't hold back.

David 35:25

Yeah.

Mick 35:26

And also everyone likes to know that they're doing a good job. So I'm, I'm very reticent to accept that as an open invitation until we've worked together a little bit. And I think you probably do a similar thing, even if it's not editing, it's like as an agent and as a publisher, you're probably looking for those sort of indicators of their willingness to take advice or to listen to you or to, I guess, just be open to feedback. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause talk is cheap and I want to see it. I want to see proof of it. Yeah. So that's to me the, the sort of element of humility. Right. Uh, that I keep saying, I mean, I think it's essential.

David 36:08

Yeah. I think

Humility is rare in publishing.

David 36:09

too, I, I should clarify a little bit that, um, there, there isn't a lot of humility in publishing. Hmm. on the publishing side of the table. Yep. I think we're speaking from kind of where we are. Yeah. And neither one of us are getting six figure salaries. Right. At least anymore. Right. We're not working, we're not doing, you know, we're not working on books that garnered six figure advances or higher or much higher. Right. We're not losing as much money on six figure advances that we used to. We both sort of opted out of that. Yeah. And oh no I forgot where I was going with that

Mick 36:48

no but like that there's not a lot of humility on the publishing side of the table

David 36:52

yeah there is there is toxic capitalism

Mick 36:56

right

David 36:57

even in religious publishing and often often especially in religious publishing oh how

Mick 37:02

dare you

David 37:03

say

Mick 37:03

such things

David 37:06

yep it's there frankly yeah I wish more people knew that I've got the spreadsheets

Mick 37:10

to show it's bottom line driven I got

David 37:13

the P&L percentages and the money making that is going on

Mick 37:17

behind some of those book deals at those publishers. Especially in evangelical publishing because people don't believe it.

David 37:24

You're going to have to prove that. I'll be really candid here. I've worked with progressive authors and I try to tell them, you might not want that. Be careful of those bigger book deals. You might not want that. They're looking for something there. Are they really going to be able long-term partner for you. You know, you want to take the money and there's something to that and that's going to help you pay for things. Right. But chances are really good you're not going to be able to quit your day job even with that bigger check.

Mick 38:01

Right. Yeah.

David 38:02

And then you're going to really be on the hook for a lot more money to make up for in your book. Or if you don't even worry about, I mean, if you're not worried about the publisher being on the hook, there is that sense of, well, they paid me a lot of money and they've not earned it back. And well, maybe that's okay because they're a big publisher. Who cares? But that's also kind of a jaded way to live. Right. And also as being a publisher behind the scenes, when I did a book deal and the book just didn't even come close to earning out a very, very large advance, it hurt our budget for the year. It hurt our team. It hurt our bonuses, perhaps, that are part of the normalcy. normal pay process in a, in a business that doesn't pay people all that great unless you're in the upper levels. Right. Um, so, so yeah, I mean, I'm kind of going on and on about this, but I do think that there is, um, the system of publishing

Choose your team wisely.

David 39:03

has its own, uh, corruptness. Right. And, um, the, the thing is most authors, when they complain about it, they don't, they're, they're complaining about more like surface things and not really seeing what's underneath all that and that they're are options today. That's right. There are, there are definitely options where you're keeping it more real, more authentic, more on the ground. And if that, if, if you're really committed to the long haul and that's, that's really what I'm, I'm in this for, you know, I, I think people see Lake drive books as like a service and that's not what I think of it at all. And why would you do it? They're going to publish their book with me and see what happens. No, I want, I want to know, what do you, what are you doing with this book five years from now? from now. Not on a sales point of view, but I want to see impact. I want to see sales, yeah. But I don't expect giant sales, but I do expect ongoing impact. Because that's all you really need and that's all you really want in book publishing is some kind of continuity, some kind of stream that just keeps going, even if it's a small one. But if you're just kind of in it and then I want to move on to something else. Or it's just one book.

Mick 40:16

Yeah, I mean, that gets back to the humility thing, too. It's like, are you entering into this on equal footing with your publisher? That's great. That's great. And the word that comes to mind is partnership. I think when we're looking to work with someone, we want a long-term partnership. And ideally, that wouldn't just be for one book. That would be for multiple books. Right. And hopefully, we're seeing some organic growth over the lifetime of all those books. Right. Sales are great. You know, good marketing ideas and hooks are great. Even good writing. I mean, man, that's why I do what I do. But a relationship with an author.

David 40:57

Yeah.

Mick 40:59

It's bigger than all of this. It's a lot of

David 41:02

fun.

Mick 41:02

And it's a lot of fun. When you do it, when it

David 41:04

goes well.

Mick 41:05

Yeah, exactly. It's this give and take partnership that you just, you can't understand until you're in it. Yeah. And once you're in it, you go, wow, this is amazing. Feeling trusted, feeling appreciated, right? on both sides of the table. I think that's just something that's the magic

David 41:20

to me. And then you still have that partnership, even if it's not as active. It's like a friendship. You can pick up on it at any time. Yep. But if you never were able to go deep in the first place with your publisher, then you can't leverage that later on. Right. Yeah.

Mick 41:39

I think we landed on it here somehow in a roundabout way. Yeah. Our characteristics of the perfect author to work with. I don't know. We might need someone to come in and help us summarize. Give us the little bullet points. But that's helpful. I think... we could probably go on and extrapolate a bit more, but I think it's a good place to leave it for now.

David 42:05

Just being a great human being is, is no small feat and it takes, it takes observation. It takes patience. It, it takes a capacity to mess things up and then kind of repair them. And that's going to happen on both sides.

Mick 42:23

No, right. Expect it. Yeah. And then repair. And then

David 42:28

like

Mick 42:28

that, that's difficult. Or

David 42:29

make up, you know, make up or make up for it, you know, like go and go in and, and, and yeah. Yeah.

Mick 42:38

You know, I was off sides or I, I didn't quite read that correctly. Or I

David 42:43

didn't get that done in time, but let me go, let me focus on this now and we're going to make some stuff happen still.

Mick 42:49

Yeah. Totally.

David 42:50

We're still on a great time schedule and

Mick 42:53

yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, it's making that relationship a priority that, that will. Yeah. Yeah. help everybody in the process, right? Recognizing that an author is doing that makes me feel good at the end of the day. Well, I hope this is helpful.

David 43:09

Once again, it feels like we're pulling all the intangibles in, you know? We always do. Sorry for that. There's no eight-step process here, everybody. I

Mick 43:19

know. I really wish I could come up with something like that, but I mean, I'll try to do it for the Substack post. That's why we're not rich. The little bullet points at the end for you to have takeaways. There you go. But, you know, they're still going to be intangible. But anyway, come back next time. We'll talk about more disruption. Thanks for being here. Thank you.