Welcome to the Disruption

A new podcast from two "former book industry experts." Editor Mick Silva and publisher and literary agent David Morris cover all manner of things for professional authors trying to navigate the ever-changing publishing landscape. 

In this first episode, we introduce some bigger questions: 

• Why books still matter 
• Can you make money at "creative expression?"
• Is being "indy" better than being corporate? 
• Can authors find more fun and less frustration?

David also shared a bit about the biggest disruptor--digital publishing--and what it means for authors. 

Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.com

Mick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.com

David Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.

Transcript

Mick 0:00

This is Publishing Disrupted, a progressive Christian indie book publishing podcast. Oh, that's a mouthful. That's a lot of words.

David 0:09

Yeah, yeah, we'll work on that.

Mick 0:10

Yeah, but this is, I've got publisher David Morris here with me, and I'm editor Mick Silva, and we're two former Christian publishing experts talking about navigating the progressive independent book market.

David 0:24

Yeah, yeah.

Mick 0:25

And we want to explore some of the bigger changes and questions in the new book publishing landscape.

David 0:30

Yeah, yeah. I think you did say we're former experts. I like that, actually. Yeah. I don't want to be an expert anymore. And I think that it's the truth. The older you get, you realize the less you know. Yes. So let's just say we're former experts from here on out. I will go with that. I think that makes us more credible, actually. I would listen to that. in the era of authenticity. Right,

Mick 0:57

right. I mean, yeah, accepting that you have something to share is part of the reason we're doing this. But we want to just discuss some of the recent changes disrupting the book publishing industry and why we think books matter, still matter in today's day and age. So one of the things that really interests me in that regard is just when I got into books, it was for this idea that we could disrupt things or we could change things. Or I don't even know if I had a clear idea about what changes I was looking for. I was just excited about that. But now we get to do that professionally in our daily lives. So talking about that, I think is part of what we're hoping to do. So we were talking about too, like disrupting, like what's being disrupted in the book, publishing space. And like, there's two levels of that. There's the book publishing industry in general, but then there's like the specific Christian publishing and evangelical publishing to make more specific.

David 2:08

That's the former expert part. We're both former expert evangelical publishing people.

Mick 2:14

Good church- going. Yeah, exactly. Up until recently. And now we've made that shift from traditional to independent, but also from largely Christian to spiritual but not religious. Is that what you're calling it now? Progressive, I guess?

David 2:29

That covers it.

Mick 2:30

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, primarily nonfiction. Yeah. But there's a lot of challenges there, and there's overlap in those two distinctions that we're trying to make.

David 2:41

Mm-hmm.

Mick 2:41

Mm-hmm.

David 2:41

So... Talk about what you, you know, with regard to the title of the show, Publishing Disrupted, you said... that you got into publishing to disrupt things a little bit. And I think that's a very core paradigmatic thought about why we're in publishing. We're in publishing not just to put books on an assembly line and edit them well and design them well and publish and market and distribute them well, but we're there to... to do something that is called creative expression, which inherently is perhaps disruptive. How would you describe that younger editor that got into publishing what you wanted to do?

Mick 3:39

That's a good question. Well, I immediately want to turn it around because it's uncomfortable. I feel like maybe you can answer this as well. Just briefly, I think my interest was there is the ivory tower concept of traditional publishing that is done with excellence and editors decide what what books they want to publish and they they figure out i mean ideally they're going to sell well and make money but really the the driving um force for publishing is what's a good conversation that we need to have where do i see a hole in the market or just an opportunity to a published recognizable author on a particular topic. And that really interested me. I wanted to have those conversations. I still feel like that's what's driving my desire to both read and publish books. The editing work that I do is always looking to do it with excellence, yes, and learn that that is a skill that you can develop, but to have these conversations that aren't being had, or really aren't even possible any other way. Maybe in a long-form documentary, but even articles, newspapers, YouTube now, TV shows, there's so many ways that media is being offered to people. But in a book, you're getting, ideally, a very synthesized and polished message that's gone through some pretty rigorous checks and balances. And not that the other forms of media aren't, but a book is special in a way that those other types aren't.

David 5:30

I was just reading an article on independent publishing, particularly in the case of women, queer, and black publishing, but it was mostly about women publishing. There's been a lot of independent publishing publishers yeah publishing more literary perhaps content for decades literally more on a independent under the radar grassroots level um and one of the things one of the one of the people quoted in the article i'm not remembering who it was at the moment but um she was talking about how um at a lot of larger publishing houses there's it's a lot of copycat into trends, copycat publishing. Where I worked, my first bigger full-time publishing job was at Guidepost Magazine. So it's an inspirational magazine, and they had a large book publishing business attached to it. Yeah, it was a pretty big business because they had a huge mailing list. It was direct mail, direct response, publishing. And the... There was a lot of power to this, but we tested everything we did. We had these mailing lists so we could do market testing and see which products would work the best. The weakness of that, which I felt like I was bumping up against a lot, was, well, we're just kind of going along with what the felt needs are rather than helping to define the felt needs. Yes. And sometimes, especially in the religious marketplace, that can get pretty sugary. A lot of the sugary stuff will rise to the top and not a lot of meaty stuff. So maybe that's one way that we're disrupting. We're actually providing things. I mean, these are religious metaphors, but I used to think of it as, well, if you're a preacher in front of a pulpit, you don't tell people what they want to hear. You tell them what they... what they need to hear. They need,

Mick 7:32

yeah. What you think God's giving you to tell them. Yeah.

David 7:36

Yeah. And I think, you know, even just taking the religious part out of it, that's what our job is. Yeah. It's sort of even to disrupt that, you know, lowest common denominator, I want the candy, I want the cookies on the lower shelf. Yes. Sugary stuff. But to inspire people to go deeper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's just a constant struggle, commercial versus commercial. What's the opposite of commercial?

Mick 8:10

Well, I mean, it's so popular. I mean, sometimes they put literary. It's artificial, but I'm going to say something like the ivory tower idea I was talking about before. It's this idea that classic traditional publishing is highbrow. or is exceptional in some ways. It's well researched, it's documented, there's a paper trail on the stuff you say. You're not just coming up with whatever's popular. Which I do, I start there because I do think that was my initial attraction to publishing. And it can be an elitist idea. I think I had a lot of elitism. It was undiagnosed at the time, and now I'm hopefully getting cured of some of that. But I don't want to let go of this idea that, like you mentioned the preacher in the pulpit, the feeling like we have a message to share, whether that's coming from God or just from the burning passion of your heart, that you want to put that in a format that is a respectable, time-honored tradition. At the same time, to disrupt what's common right now, I guess, with the popular book publishing market, that we wanted to talk about celebrity books. A lot of the stuff that's being published right now is just not of that high quality that previously all books tended to be. Now anyone can publish a book, and so there's just a lot more competition And the forces for making something more sugary and popular are stronger than ever. That's what's being disrupted. That's what we see as being disrupted. There's more sugar and less nutrition, if you want to oversimplify it. We'd like to bring back some of the nutrition, and yet there's nothing wrong with having some sugar. I mean, obviously, it's got to have something that's attractive to it, too. I like the term, it's an amalgamation, but like edutainment. We want to educate people, but entertaining them is necessary in today's new media landscape, however you want to phrase that. So there's kind of a balance there. So yeah, maybe publishing disrupted it works on two levels. It's that it is being disrupted and we need to understand how that's happening, why that's happening, what it looks like, and then how do we want to respond with our own disruptive forces or interests.

David 10:47

You've talked about how you've worked on a lot of books and with a lot of authors over the years. Yeah. And you kind of don't want to do that same thing anymore. Right. And you're kind of disrupting yourself at the moment. I am too. You are too. Yeah. Yeah. We're both doing that. So what are we trying to... We're trying to break free from being in that sort of copycat mainstream flow. It's less commercially viable. Right. There's smaller paychecks involved. Less money, for sure.

Mick 11:25

Yeah.

David 11:25

And that's kind of true for publishing in general anyway, with the way it's structured now.

Mick 11:30

Yeah, anyone going into publishing for making money needs to think again. Right, right. It's

David 11:36

there, but there's a formula to it, and sometimes it involves being a celebrity in the first place.

Mick 11:46

Well, just wearing a lot of hats. I'm admiring of what you do with the publishing role at Lake Drive. Like drive books. That's something we definitely want to talk about. I mean, and just to say like your, the roles that you have as publisher and, you know, a consultant basically to the authors you work with tends to require you to wear a lot of hats and figure things out on the, on the fly. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's part of that disruption that's going on. I don't want to work with the authors who I think believe in that old concept of, of publishing that, that, you know, You get a book manuscript, you create a proposal, you find an editor and an agent, and they go and publish and sell your book. I think that's the traditional model that a lot of authors have. And that's typically how I was finding people at writers' conferences and through recommendations of people. And I was just finding that if they're not into actually learning the publishing part of it, editing as well, doing some self-editing and doing some self-publishing. They're not going to be a good author. They need to understand that those roles are required now. There are tasks to learn, but they're not unlearnable.

David 13:15

Yeah, yeah. I do think that on the whole, most authors... over time as authors, when you publish more than one book, you start learning about how publishing works. It's not just you working in your writer's shed and producing manuscripts that then other people handle. No, I think even the ones who start out that way, especially the ones who become really successful, except for maybe some sort of caricatured versions of what authors are, but most of them start learning what is it that their editor... is challenged with at their job. What is it that their publisher is trying to do? What's working? What's not working? Right. I mean, there are authors who don't want to know any of that stuff, but it's usually it's usually a hindrance to them to not try to learn it some. And I think, too, it's it's sort of like anything. You know, your author work is like a full time job. And and so as a full time job, or as something you really care about, don't you want to take seriously all the facets to it? Not just your writing craft, not just your ideas. but also how you personally market the book. Right. You know, that the whole that big platform question. What what are the what are the things that the publishing partners that you surround yourself with need to do their jobs well, like publishers and editors, the sales team? You know, how can you help equip them? It's almost like authors themselves should take courses in publishing and just learn about the business, because eventually if they want to be as successful as they might want to be, then therefore they're going to want to learn about those things so why not give yourself a leg up that's right

Mick 14:58

yeah yeah I like that I think there's more there's more than ever available to help authors do that mm-hmm I mean I'm seeing it all the time I subscribe to a lot of podcasts and as I know you do sub stacks and blogs websites other authors who have done this and are offering their tips yeah you know how to sell You know, and it's very particular. Especially when we're talking about nonfiction and then specifically progressive or indie nonfiction. How are you doing that as opposed to say, you know, a big or traditional house with a contract? You know, there's a lot of challenging and exciting things taking place there. So I think we wanted to discuss some of that. Some of our background. you know, how that becomes relevant. Uh, some of the things that are, um, uh, frustrating to us and some of the reasons we're moving in this direction and trying to shift into a, uh, less, um, um, less, I don't know what we want to say, but making less money, uh, but like less important as well. I mean, you had a title, you had, you had, uh, you know, a title with that paycheck, you know, that brought you a lot of clout and visibility even. Health

David 16:24

insurance, pre-tax dollars donated to a 401k.

Mick 16:27

This was nice to have, you know, and, you know, we're not going to make any bones about that. But like a lot of people, I think, who approached publishing initially, like you're, as a student, I mean, to your question, I was looking at internships. I was trying to find a foot in the door just to see where could I start in publishing, basically to learn the trade and learn how to do it with excellence. And I was really fortunate to find some people who were willing to help me to learn what I hadn't learned in college. Just some of the skills and, you know, working initially on CIP data, that cataloging in publication program for Library of Congress.

Mick 17:13

You did some of that? Submitting all of those documents.

Mick 17:15

Yeah. So that's part of the editorial, you know, tasks. Right. And then, you know, running, it's basically the mailroom stuff, you know, routing things interdepartmentally so you can learn who's who and where they work and things like that. And then working your way up. That's basically what anyone who's going into publishing now, I don't know that they're, there's like the two roads. And my daughter is 18 years old and she's trying to get into editing. She's like, do I want to work in-house or do I want to just do it on my own? The professional track that I took, I don't know, maybe that's not as viable anymore.

David 17:58

Right. So the in-house track. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think in today's gig economy, it's less so. In the remote worker economy, it's less so of an issue for sure. And there's also fewer editorial positions, I would venture to say, with all the consolidation that's gone on. And there's quite a few of people like you and me who were in the corporate environment and then were not for one reason or another. Right. And a lot of it is the consolidation part. A lot of it is the pressures of the industry that publishers are facing. So I think in a way that actually creates that sort of points in the direction that not trying to aspire to the corporate route, if we're talking about getting into publishing. Now we're talking about getting into publishing. But it kind of gets back to the issue of publishing is far more grassroots now than it used to be. There's much more of a universe of grassroots work and publishing going on. And there's opportunity there. It's not necessarily associated with the big, stable corporate job and payroll situation.

Mick 19:12

Right.

David 19:12

Um, but if you can learn about publishing, even as like an author slash editor, you know, that's a, that's another model. No one really talks about out loud, but there, I know quite a few people who that's what they are. Yeah. Yeah.

Mick 19:24

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, that's what I'm aspiring to now too. I mean, it might as well write a bit as well, you know? And I think you too, like even coming from more of the academic world, like trying to write as well as, publish and edit. You know, you're doing a lot of editing of the books that you're working on as well. So yeah, again, wearing a bunch of hats, but that's part of the disruption, right? How publishing has changed. There's just a lot more of, you know, just get your hands dirty and learn how to do it yourself. Right, right. Yeah.

David 19:58

Yeah. Could we talk about the, like what has really disrupted the industry more than anything? Like from a structural point of view anyway? Yeah.

Mick 20:09

Yeah, what do you see?

David 20:10

Itn he last 20 years, you've experienced this. We've both been in publishing throughout the big digital disruption, the way the digital marketplace has changed, the way that books are distributed and sold and distributed as well as discovered. Right. So the biggest thing I like to point to is just that when Amazon came on the scene, it took a little while, but... We lost most of the bricks and mortar physical bookstores. And a lot of people want to lament that, and I understand why. But at the same time, it brought a great deal of convenience and speed to the book buying process. It actually created a bigger bookshelf, a bigger bookstore. Now you can have... One of the big things that... people in the publishing industry talk about is that with Amazon, you actually can have more backlist available as a publisher, whereas in the past, you had to have printed books in a bookstore, but now with e-books, print-on-demand, and Amazon's ability to stock just about anything if they need to, you can keep books alive as a publisher a lot longer than you used to. You're not beholden to the limited environment of bookstores in the country or beyond. So that's one of the really cool things about it. But I think we did lose a lot of bookstores, and that is a key issue that I don't know that very many people really talk about and understand very well. But bookstores weren't just a place to go get books. They were a place to market books. Publishers relied on bookstores to drive awareness. If the book reader was in the bookstores, if that's primarily where they were, the bookstores had exclusive access to where the books get bought and who buys them. And the publishers had exclusive access to the bookstores. Right. And so if you got a book deal as an author with a publisher, it meant, okay, you're now in that network. The big problem is now with Amazon and even the digital marketplace, bookstores don't have that exclusive relationship to the book buyers anymore. the book readers. And so therefore the publishers don't have that exclusive access anymore. And so what are publishers doing? They're actually turning toward authors who are driving awareness of their books with their online platforms and more directly to Amazon, where if you're pitching about your book online, Or if you're getting others to help you pitch it, it's just a click away to go get that book. Whereas in the past, you'd had to hear about the book word of mouth, oh, I gotta pick that up at the bookstore sometime. Great process, great community feeling, and it's coming back some too. Independent stores are on the rise. But the vast majority of sales happen, especially for entry-level authors, they happen online, most of it on Amazon. I mean, we're talking 95%. When we're talking nonfiction, religious slash spiritual books, 95% online for entry-level authors. And that's what you're seeing? At the grassroots level. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, I might even be going too low. It could be a higher percentage. Unbelievable.

Mick 23:51

Okay. Well, and that's almost an exclusive, right? It's like a monopoly.

David 23:56

I saw that as well, though, when I was a publisher for HarperCollins' Zondervan Vision. I saw how bricks-and-mortar bookstores were a much smaller percentage of sales than anybody wanted to admit. Yeah. Right.

Mick 24:11

Yeah. Yeah, the sales team was always bemoaning the fact that there were more stores closing. And I mean, some would open and they'd be smaller, but a lot of the larger outlets were going away. Well, and I mean, that was going way back to like when I first started in 2000 and even before then. Some of the big box stores that were... Like selling targets and, you know.

David 24:36

That was a big movement. That was just before Amazon.

Mick 24:38

Yeah, big box stuff. And then Amazon took over from them, and that was a big disruption. Yeah. But yeah, now, like, even there's no more Borders, you know. Right. There are several booksellers, but... It's more smaller and boutique.

David 24:57

It's still a challenge, though. I mean, like the Tattered Cover bookstores in the Denver area, I think there was more than one, right? They filed for bankruptcy. And actually, I think they were bought out by Barnes & Noble. And they're being continued as Tattered Cover, but they're owned by Barnes & Noble. They got the Barnes & Noble structure to it. If not, the branding is more behind the scenes, perhaps.

Mick 25:19

And yet you were talking about that article that Barnes & Noble was moving more toward that local... indie kind of feel

David 25:26

in their bookstores. That seems to be what's working for them right now. They have, I can't remember exactly, but it's under 700 stores. It used to be a lot higher. Oh, yeah. But they are taking more of a model of supporting a retail store that is a part of the local community. So it might even have its own name. Yeah. Interesting. Which is different than calling them all Barnes & Noble bookstores. It'll have its own way of displaying the books. They'll make their own choices of which books they bring in. Yeah. Whereas in the past, it was like a national buyer who worked in the New York office for Barnes & Noble.

Mick 26:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And was getting everything sort of centralized that way, and

David 26:05

now

Mick 26:06

it's much less that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is good. Yeah. We need to keep going on it. We could do like several chapters on publishing disruption.

Mick 26:15

We probably could. How have things been disruptive? Who's doing the disrupting? Yeah. How do you respond to the disruption? Let's think about that. And then we'll regroup next time and see where we pick up.

Mick 26:30

Sounds good.

Mick 26:31

All right. Thanks for being here.

Mick 26:33

All right.

Mick 26:34

Look forward to next time already.